<p>I just have to chime in since yesterday was not a great day here. D got a zero on her first physics lab, apparently because she used open source rather than msoft spreadsheet software. She did the entire lab writeup but the prof gave her a zero. OK. So I’m upset with d because she should have spoken up about the software, but a zero just tells me that this prof wants a smaller class and is actively seeking drops. Lovely. I’ve told D that a drop is not an option, since this is the only prof that teaches calc-based physics. Somebody posted stats for the class a few years back - half dropped, and of the remaining only 1 A, 2 Bs. Mostly Ds and Fs. Yikes!</p>
<p>btw I took really hard classes w/50% averages, many drops, etc. but the profs usually acted like they wanted you to learn the material. It is the ones that act like they are conducting a hazing that I despise.</p>
<p>I don’t understand why any parent would do anything but let your son or daughter vent, it’s college. There will be good professors, jerks and everything in between. It’s up to the student to figure out what they’ll need to do well in the class. “Well” sometimes being a relative term…</p>
<p>Some are required for your major or program.</p>
<p>In other instances, dropping the class would mean that the student would have too few credits to be considered full-time. Deadlines for adding are usually a lot earlier than deadlines for dropping, so adding another course to compensate may not be an option. Also, it’s tough to add a course if you’ve missed the first couple of weeks of it.</p>
<p>JHS: i think u gave the original comments a more humane spin than the person reported.</p>
<p>essentially, what this really boils down to is whether u think that the existence of ‘weeders’ serve a higher purpose. i don’t think that they do. in addition to being a very old-school, antiquated approach to teaching, weeders have the potential to kill the curiosity of kids who take these classes (people who started out with a genuine interest in the subject and could go on to do great things in the field). i’d even go so far as to say that the existence of weeders is a big reason we have such a dearth of math/science/engineering graduates in this country. </p>
<p>“Not all classes can be dropped.”
true, then you have to deal.</p>
<p>“In other instances, dropping the class would mean that the student would have too few credits to be considered full-time.”
It’s often not a bad idea to sign up for more than you ultimately want to take, then drop based on what you like. D2 has learned this.</p>
<p>But if you didn’t, and it would be a problem to drop or to add at this point, then of course this needs to be considered as well.</p>
<p>“It’s up to the student to figure out what they’ll need to do well in the class.”
And also up to them to decide of this is a battle that they simply choose not to fight, and they don’t need to. If that is the situation.</p>
<p>"I don’t understand why any parent would do anything but let your son or daughter vent, it’s college. "</p>
<p>I would certainly give my opinion to my child, but I wouldn’t be calling anybody at the college that’s for sure.</p>
<p>As things have developed, it appears that the prof in question pretends to be a “weeder,” but maybe really isn’t. Unfortunately, OP’s D didn’t get the memo in advance.</p>
<p>He isn’t going to make good writers out of bad in one semester, no matter how much he blusters and threatens.</p>
<p>A student has to look out for real life factors - protecting your GPA is more important than sucking up a ‘life lesson’. Law school won’t check back to see if the professor was a mean-spirited idiot.</p>
<p>I would do nothing. The fact is prof cannot fail most of class because it is a huge negative on his performance. He has bosses also, he wants positive comments during his own evaluation time. He is employed just like the rest of us. We all know what position of being employed entails.<br>
Another fact is, yes, there are weed out killer classes specifically designed to weed out certain % of kids, make them think harder about where they belong in their future and maybe change their major if they cannot cope. Yes, this classes also have certain psychological pressure to check out how tough kids are. This is very common, for example, for pre-meds and engineers. My D’s first Bio in very first semester of freshman year was designed specifically around this concept. Good number of honors kids (mostly valedictorians from private schools) have changed their career path after this class. It is actually very good to have class like this at the beginning before wasting time/money chasing major that they do not belong. D had hardest time (after Honors Bio in HS that used the same text book and AP Bio (both A’s and 5 on AP exam). She stick to it, work harder than she ever did in her life and got an A. Class was taught by 3 profs in relatively small (Honors class) class being in classroom at the same time lecturing in their specialty of this class. It also had lab. with very time consuming “cruel” assignments, graded separately and tested separately from lecture class.</p>
<p>It is very personal decision what to do in this situation. If one stays in class, she needs to realise that time commitment and seeking help in understanding is essential. If one drops class like this, most of them facing with decision of possibly changing their major.</p>
I’d have far less problem with my D having to deal with rude, confrontational, unprofessional people when she’s being paid $50K a year to put up with it. </p>
<p>When I’M paying $50K a year for it? Uh…not so much.</p>
<p>i use the term ‘weeders’ to describe classes designed to specifically block/discourage large groups of people from advancing in a field of study. profs rarely let u know up front that you’re in a weeder course…u find that out later (usu. when it’s too late to drop). </p>
<p>the professor in question just sounds like a jerk. sadly it (“weeding out”) persists because too many people think it’s a good idea to approach education from a “boot camp” perspective. we (americans) probably need to rethink this.</p>
<p>** i see now that miamidap addressed weeders in the sense that i meant the term</p>
<p>^Also, “weeder” classes are well known among students and all new ones are warned about them. We heard about D’s class from pre-med on move-in day. She said, if you survive, you are basically in. The girl was very happy with her C in this class.</p>
<p>Treetopleaf:
I don’t know that this applies to your kid’s situation, but I audited a course like this recently at a community college, just to brush up.
About 2/3 of the kids in the class, at the start, were simply not capable of doing the work at the level of this course. Many dropped after the first exam, several that should have dropped stuck it out to the end, with severely adverse consequences no doubt.</p>
<p>Since this course serves as a foundation for future engineering & science studies, the curriculum, problems, etc, are fairly standardized and cannot be made easier, beyond a certain point, to accomodate people who shouldn’t be in there.</p>
<p>Getting a zero for using a different software program is not what I’m talking about in my case, the kids were being given every reasonable break but that prof. couldn’t go very far given the necessary curriculum.</p>
<p>At my own school, years ago, the student body was carefully prescreened yet this was still a hard course for most people. The difference is there was a reasonable grade distribution, without massive drops or terribly disproportionate Ds & Fs (I think). Not because the material was easier (actually it was harder), but because the students were prescreeened via the admissions dept.</p>
<p>monydad, the prof at this CC announced with irony? disappointment? glee? whatever, that he/she could not kick anyone out of this physics class because they were all qualified, apparently based on math placement test scores and prev. classes taken. The grading is very picky, no partial credit, so far very little corrected work. The zero lab has nothing but Xs on it. I’m convinced that he/she wants a smaller class and less work.</p>
<p>As for weeders, I will never forget the 2nd CS majors class I took - half dropped (from over 200 to 90-something), and half of those who did not drop received Ds and Fs. Passing this class required an enormous amount of time. Perhaps this served the purpose of the University in reducing the number of kids taking that major, but I have to assume a great number of these people entered industry and programmed computers without the guidance this class offered. Many kids dropped out of engineering school altogether. Maybe these weeders should at least point kids to schools where they can succeed?</p>
<p>If people want to go into programs that weed out the weaker ones, that’s OK with me, as long as they go in with their eyes open. (You can read more about this on the Musical Theater Major forum!)</p>
<p>Check this guy out–Professor (& rabbi) Jay Holstein, University of Iowa, Dep’t of Religion. Thirty-plus years ago, it was my first college class. Scared the bejeezus out of me. Which is why, 5 years ago, I made D1 take his class as well…</p>
<p>Google YouTube - “Professor” documentary</p>
<p>BTW, that very auditorium, in Holstein’s class called “Quest For Human Destiny”, is where wife & I met.</p>
<p>re. #93: what i meant to say was that sometimes weeders are known, and sometimes they aren’t. it really depends on the student. kids come to college with varying levels of sophistication, and (for many different reasons) can easily be blindsided when they encounter a class like this.</p>
<p>Remember, we’re hearing third hand what the professor said. His actual words may have been very different.</p>
<p>When I was a professor, students misinterpreted or distorted some things that I said such as not including that although I was a hard grader who took off for grammatical errors, I also would personally take students with grammar problems to the writing center, which offered free help, and I was very available for help even beyond my office hours.</p>
<p>“…they were all qualified, apparently based on math placement test scores and prev. classes taken.”</p>
<p>I’m sure the kids in the class I audited were too, by that standard, the registrar does not allow one to enroll without the prerequisites. The problem is the material in this class is, of necessity, a quantum leap (pun intentional) harder than these prerequisite courses. There’s a certain level of math aptitude, and work ethic/habits, that is required to excel in such a course, and CC enrollment is not restricted only to those who have it. Your prof does not need to take extraordinary measures to reduce the class size, because based on what I observed this is certain to happen anyway, for the reasons I stated.
I certainly can’t excuse the lab grading though.</p>
<p>I guess you can say in a sense it is a weeder course, but not for any nefarious reasons, necessarily. If they can’t handle this work they won’t be able to make it through a science or engineering program down the road either. And a lot of those in the class I observed couldn’t.</p>
<p>Certainly nobody needs to make it worse than it already is by giving zeros on completed labs.</p>
<p>northstar: i agree-- i would almost bet $ that his actual words were different. my comments are really about the practice of weeding kids out, which i think is much more of a problem than anything any particular prof actually says. it may “toughen” some people up, but it likely also drives many out of programs where they could actually thrive and contribute.</p>