<p>The</a> Deceptive Income of Physicians</p>
<p>He says physicians really don't make that much money. </p>
<p>Excerpt: </p>
<p>"This debt that consumes one-fourth of their net income for 20 years wasnt accrued because they bought a house they couldnt afford it is because they chose to become a physician.</p>
<p>Believe it or not, the amount of money reaching a physicians personal bank account per hour worked is only a few dollars more than that of a high school teacher."</p>
<p>^Well, then do not have debt! Get free UG education (Merit awards) and negotiate with parents paying for Med. School (some Med. Schools also cheaper than others, so there are choices). This strategy is working for some, worthwhile to consider. Also have a spouse who is working (very rare in Physician’s case, I know very many physician’s families, all have much higher standard of living than the rest of us mere mortals and none have working spouse).</p>
<p>^Its really not that easy miami. Most don’t have parents that can pay for their education. Getting a free UG requires a lot of work during HS and some luck. Thats quite possible, but even then you are looking at med school debt. </p>
<p>OP, that article is scaring people away. You should never have 100,000 in debt from ug 1st of all. That means you borrowed the money for your entire education. Get scholarships and you can reduce that number easily to 30,000. Also, no doctor making 200k+ a year is going to let debt set for 20 years. They will be more likely to pay it off as fast as possible. Most would probably pay it off within 10 years, while purchasing a home, and a couple cars. 10 year repayment will cut the accrued interest ALOT. 200K will be 275k, not 400k or 600K. You would have to be dumb to allow interest to build like that. Doctors I know live in wealthy neighborhoods with mercedes, range rovers, jaguars, etc. Teachers usually do not. The author of that article did not take into account scholarships, grants, or loans that do not have interest rates. You will most likely be in tons of debt (unless you have parents like miami 
). But you will make tons of money to pay of the debt. You will have twice the amount of debt of a teacher (considering no scholarships), but make 3-6 times the amount of a teacher (not saying anything is wrong with a teacher, the author just refers to them a lot).</p>
<p>“Its really not that easy miami. Most don’t have parents that can pay for their education. Getting a free UG requires a lot of work during HS and some luck. Thats quite possible, but even then you are looking at med school debt.”</p>
<p>-Easier than you think and very possible and do not need to be exceptional genius, but, yes, a lot of work during HS and in UG…and all that work is absolutely nothing in comparison to what is waiting for you in Med. School. So, if that is what you want to do, might as well get used to it. Hard work is the only requirement.
Yes, not all physicians are making lots of money. Primary care do not. But again, if spouse is working like other mere mortals families, family is making very decent money. But again, all the ones that I know and know very many, none of spouses are working, so go figures, they still live much better than other families around me and some have more kids also.</p>
<p>*Getting a free UG requires a lot of work during HS and some luck. *</p>
<p>1) Well, I would hope that a future doctor DID DO A LOT of work in HS. I don’t go along with this idea of doing “so so” in high school and then somehow becoming a superstar in college for med school acceptance. It can happen, but not likely. </p>
<p>2) Almost anyone with what I consider “pre-med quality” high school stats could get a large merit undergrad scholarship if they want one and they aren’t into a prestigious name. </p>
<p>My kids’ flagship university gives a nearly free-ride to any NMF.</p>
<p>It also gives free tuition to anyone with a 1400+ M+CR SAT (or 32+ ACT) and a 3.5+ GPA. </p>
<p>It gives a 2/3 tuition scholarship to anyone with a 1330-1390 M+CR SAT (or 30-31 ACT) and a 3.5 GPA.</p>
<p>It will also give free tuition PLUS 2500 per year to anyone who majors in engineering or computer science with a 1330+ M+CR SAT. </p>
<p>For the student who falls in the last category, after getting free tuition and 2500 per year (which pays for most of a generous meal plan) he only has to pay about $10k per year for the honors dorm, books, misc, etc.</p>
<p>So, someone who has worked hard in high school and has strong stats, can go to a flagship U for about $12k per year. That can be cheaper than commuting to a state school… For instance, Illinois State Univ costs instate students $13k per year for tuition and books…and that’s not even the state’s top univ…UIUC and U Ill-Chicago are ranked higher. </p>
<p>this link not only shows you the Engineering scholarship mentioned, but also the university-wide ones and the NMF ones.</p>
<p>[Scholarships</a> - The College of Engineering - The University of Alabama](<a href=“http://eng.ua.edu/undergraduate/scholarships/]Scholarships”>Scholarships – College of Engineering | The University of Alabama)</p>
<p>So, there’s no reason for an undergrad with strong high school stats to graduate with $100k in undergrad debt. There are alternatives.</p>
<p>The math by that original blogger is seriously incorrect.</p>
<p>I love you guys on CC, you help me A LOT, but sometimes it seems as if you acknowledge half my post and respond to that. Miami, easier than I think? I am a college student so I already been through the process. I dont really need to Think I already know. Sometimes Miami, with all due respect, you over generalize based on your daughters experience. The OP is not looking at the same schools as your D probably not the same circumstances. So to say what your D did and her outcome is irrelevant. I worked hard in high school, but I only received full rides to a few schools, schools I did not want to go to at the end. 90% of kids have some type of debt (est.).
Mom2 & Miami
What I said that you ignored was
It is possible, I never said it wasnt. I never even said you need to be a genius to do so. I know people with 3.3 who got full rides. But youre assuming the OP hasnt started HS yet. And you dont know what school the OP wants to go to. It most likely is not the schools your children went to. I said latter in my post to get scholarships and you can easily leave with $30k in debt instead of 100k
Which is what you said mom (except 40k assuming no outside help)
And the ultimate ignored part of my post
Med school debt, which noone referred to, is a much greater problem than UG. You cant expect big merit scholarships. And most people parents dont pay for it. I know mines arent and only one of friends mom will (I have many premed friends), and apparently the OPs is not either or they wouldnt be concerned with it.</p>
<p>
Dwalker, I agree that you have some very good points. But people here can hardly reach a consensus on how different the “experience” the student would likely have if he or she chooses the school “he really wants to go to.”</p>
<p>The family which sends their child to a “cheaper” school (i.e., the school which gives the student a “big discount” based on either the merit or the need, or both) would believe the experience is what you can make of it and you can be a happy and successful premed at most places, The family which sends their child to a school for which the family or the student himself need to shell out some “real” money believes it is worth the money to buy the “experience.”</p>
<p>This is a big argument here and it is not easy to have a complete agreement on this. But what I observe is that, no matter what route the student and his/her family take, they think they have made a right choice (by shelling out quite significant money or not for the student’s “experience” as an UG) as long as the student ends up being a successful premed. (For a record, this family, unlike MiamiDAP or mom2, did shell out some significant money for its student for his UG’s “experience” – especially for his first two years in college, and he is lucky to have a happy ending so no regret here. For his junior and senior years, although it is not totally free, we actually paid less for tuition/fees at a private school than at a public school, just because the school’s FA policy changed.)</p>
<p>^ Thats what I’m saying. Not everyone is the same. You can’t expect someone to get a free education somewhere less desirable if theyre family can offered paying for college. Or go to a private instead of public and potentially accumulate 3x more debt. Everybody is unique. The school I choose I only will have $2k debt a year. Thats nothing to me. I will pay it off before med school even starts. Miami D doesnt have any debt. Mom2 has some debt. My friend got 1 scholarship but got into a great school. They will be 100k in debt. They worked hard, but didnt get a fullride. Most kids who go to top schools obviously work hard, but they dont get fullrides. There are to many students out there to think every premed can leave with no debt. Most will have debt, and that can’t be solved by just working hard. </p>
<p>Sent from my DROIDX using CC App</p>
<p>I didn’t really read the link carefully, but all that I know is that the richest people in my town of 70k are either doctors or high level executives in the companies. The doctors are living in pretty lavish houses, enjoying their memberships in country clubs, & such. They don’t appear to be struggling with debt, although maybe things are changing for the new doctors.</p>
<p>haha here’s a funny quote from the link:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>The doctors in my town don’t appear to be exploited. They are among the richest in the area where I grew up.</p>
<p>
DS’s school, which is a (arguably very) top school, does not give any student a merit-based scholarship/aid according to their policy. They (as well as their affiliated medical school) do give out need-based scholarship quite generously.</p>
<p>So, if a student could get quite significant need-based financial aid from this kind of college, it is definitely worth going – as it could be cheaper than going to a public school. (I think we only paid about 2k -3k for tuition/fees each year for his junior and senior years. But our family’s financial status is likely among the bottom 20-25% of the financial status of all the families which send their kids there, LOL.)</p>
<p>^ Here, if its not cheaper, it won’t be that much more than the public for those who are middle-low class. Probably 5k more in some cases. Are top public school however, if you are eligible for the pell grant, gives free tuition. I heard that top schools like duke and harvard give very generous scholarships to student who show exceptional need. But they still probably will leave with some debt. Usually it comes in the form of what scholarships don’t cover, such as housing, books, and maybe a summer class or two. I think schools give students who need money tuition and fees minus what they can get with the stafford loan. For example, school tuition and fees =40k, eligible stafford loan 5k, school will give student 35k. They will borrow the 5k each year, leaving with 20k in debt. Which is not that bad, and certainly not 100k. I have hardly heard of a student not having a gap between tuition AND FEES, and their FA, esp. in the first 2 years. Even with a ‘fullride’, there is a gap, because fullride covered tuition but not room and board (not always the case).</p>
<p>I want to add a different spin on the point that mom2collegekids made that downplays the idea of those who did “so so” in HS but can just “turn it on” in college.
What about those who did “so so” in their freshman and sophomore years, then turned it on the rest of high school?</p>
<p>I had near-perfect junior and senior years at a school that sent 2 to Harvard, 1 to Yale, 1 to Amherst and 1 to Wash U (not a slouch of a school), but pretty bad first two years (2.8 GPA). My ACT score was also in the 98 percentile.
I go to UIUC, the state flagship, got no merit aid. 33k per year, so I’ll be over 100k in debt.</p>
<p>I may be the exception, but I think it’s definitely possible to be a good student and not get any help, especially if you “turned it on” before you left high school, resulting in a bad GPA/class rank that gets you nowhere financially.</p>
<p>I agree with M2CK’s worries about those who think that being in college will revolutionize their school capabilities, but I am pointing out that there are those like me whose current abilities are not indicative of his/her overall HS career, meaning someone could be a great student and also have a ton of debt due to receiving little to no merit aid.</p>
<p>Physician Compensation data from AMGMA. Keep in mind that these are median comp figures and not starting salaries. I believe the figures include benefits. Also keep in mind that comp varies substantially from market to market. With the current push to contain health care costs, I expect there will be substantial pressure on reimbursement which will affect physician incomes. Also consider that many of the high paying specialties will require completion of residencies and fellowships which are not high paying endeavors (i.e., you won’t be making enough in residency and fellowship to be paying off your loans). I am a health care attorney and my wife is a physician. I know lots of physicians in my midwestern metro market who make less than the median figures listed in the survey. </p>
<p>[Physician</a> Compensation Data - Cejka Search](<a href=“Cejka Search: Health Care Executive Recruiting Firm”>Cejka Search: Health Care Executive Recruiting Firm)</p>
<p>“We believe the data is representative of large multi-specialty group practices.”</p>
<p>That effectively rules out a good portion of primary care offices, as well as as most academic medical centers? Those two would certainly drag the numbers down.</p>
<p>To answer the OP question “Is this article true” is problematic. It is “true” in the sense that the math appears to be correct, but it is not true in the sense of being an accurate reflection of the real world. The assumptions stated throughout are dubious. More to the point, it’s whiny and reflects a sense of entitlement, and focuses on money to the exclusion of other things which are valuable to real people.</p>
<p>The professions and jobs that people go into reflect a true capitalist system. People “pay” with their choices the amount they think those choices are worth. To become a doctor you need to “pay” a lot in terms of time, effort, personal sacrifice and, yes, money. Obviously the “product” is perceived as being worth that price, as twice as many people take the MCAT every year than get into medical schools. People “pay” almost as much to go to law school with much less probability of getting a financial reward commensurate with that purchase price, which makes medical school look like a bargain from that perspective.</p>
<p>“I didn’t really read the link carefully, but all that I know is that the richest people in my town of 70k are either doctors or high level executives in the companies. The doctors are living in pretty lavish houses, enjoying their memberships in country clubs, & such. They don’t appear to be struggling with debt, although maybe things are changing for the new doctors.”</p>
<p>There is a tendency for some people in occupations dealing with the public to live beyond their means. Doctors and lawyers are particularly notable in this regard. People with lavish houses etc often times do not have a pot to “iss” in.</p>
<p>Uncanny, what was your high school GPA and ACT? It sounds like your ACT was around 31/32…don’t know what your weighted GPA was.</p>
<p>Anyway…it sounds like you wanted UIUC, but you could have had other merit choices…even if it meant doing a gap year after high school to let your senior year grades bump your low frosh/soph grades.</p>
<p>Being over 100k in debt for undergrad is soooooo unwise. Seriously. No one should have more than $25k-35k debt for undergrad. You’re going to graduate from med school with about $300k or so in debt. YIKES!!!</p>
<p>If we could turn the clock back (or for someone who’s reading this as a soph/rising jr in high school), this is what I would have recommended for someone who had a 2.8 GPA at the end of soph year.</p>
<p>You need to take as many honors/AP classes that you can for junior year…and senior year. If necessary, do a few online high school classes junior year as well. The goal is to bump that GPA up as much as possible by the end of junior year…and if that’s not possible, then by the end of senior year (and taking a gap year). </p>
<p>Take courses that won’t get recalculated out of a college’s GPA calculations. My kids’ school accepts ALL classes, but some schools do not.</p>
<p>Some kids load their APs for senior year, but that is TOO late to help with GPA bump if you’re applying fall of senior year to colleges. </p>
<p>And, as mentioned above, if necessary for the GPA bump, do a gap year and apply a year later. If it saves you $70k in debt or more…it is sooooooo worth it!!!</p>
<p>And…there are schools that will award merit for a high SAT/ACT and a 3.0 GPA or 3.3 GPA…so that option would also be out there as well.</p>
<p>I think the big disconnect is that there is a huge difference between the incomes of doctors who’ve been practicing for - say - 10 years or more…vs…those who have less than 10 years of practice under their belts.</p>
<p>Yes, we can all point to the 40+ year old MDs living very nicely. But, if those MDs had big debt at age 30 when they began their practices, then those first 10 or so years weren’t comfortable at all.</p>
<p>My OB/GYN borrowed his med school money (this was in the late 70s/early 80s when med school cost a lot less). He went to Creighton.</p>
<p>My OB/GYN said that he and his wife really had to struggle to pay that money back. It wasn’t easy. He had a new practice, his wife gave birth to their first of 3 kids, and they lived very modestly for awhile. He drove this small OLD red Subaru to work everyday. He did many of the car repairs and home repairs himself!</p>
<p>Now, he’s living VERY WELL…custom-built home…gated community. Kids go/went to Notre Dame U. One son is starting med school and he’s paying for it all. My OB/GYN now in his mid 50s. </p>
<p>However, that doesn’t change the fact that he was struggling during those early doctor years. The last thing he’d want is for his kids to have $200k-300k in debt when they finished med school. </p>
<p>I don’t know how much Creighton SOM cost (COA) in the late 70s/early 80s…probably something like $50k for the whole 4 years. But, it wasn’t easy paying that much back.</p>
<p>Some current MDs can comment about just the “start up” costs involved with beginning a new practice.</p>
<p>Anyway…my point is that you can’t just “skip over” those leaner years as if they don’t exist. Bills do need to get paid during those years. Mortgages/car payments/ etc need to get paid. And, the big discretionary income isn’t there at that point.</p>
<p>My ACT score was a 31. Weighted at the time of application (6 semesters) was 3.62, and as of my final transcript was 3.8. (APs weighted 5/4, honors weighted 4.2/4)</p>
<p>Looking back, I should have considered applying to lower-ranked schools or taking a gap year. I was too naive, hoping I could still get in to some top schools, or get get good aid from UIowa or UWisconsin, but didn’t. I also never considered a gap year because I never heard of anyone doing it.</p>
<p>I will consider having the Army pay me to go to med school, being an Army doc for a period of time.</p>