<p>"IT IS THE FAMILY?S DETERMINATION THAT THEY CANNOT AFFORD TO FINANCE A COLUMBIA EDUCATION THAT ALLOWS THEM TO BE RELEASED FROM THE BINDING EARLY DECISION ADMISSIONS OFFER. The family must first speak with a financial aid officer, before the release is finalized. Ultimately, it is the family?s decision whether or not they feel capable of accepting the need-based Columbia financial aid award."</p>
<p>Xiggi, Why is this paragraph so difficult to comprehend? It contradicts what you said.</p>
<p>"Folks should not post here to answer THAT question unless they have specific experiences or knowledge of how colleges have acted in that situation. It is not helpful to post what the policies say is supposed to happen. The question being asked here is whether the policies are ever not enforced."</p>
<p>I just have to smile. :)</p>
<p>columbia does admit that 2 or 2 families a year are released from their ED committment for financial reasons( families who it seems to be implied didn't understand that Columbia doesn't offer merit aid or famiiles who didn't originally submit correct figures)
At the same time- they release them to apply to lower cost schools- schools that offer merit aid.
Doesnt say that if they apply to a school that offers merit, but they don't recieve any if they are released to attend a school that ultimately would cost the same as Columbia</p>
<p>so I admit I haven't found any instances of students being blackballed because they reneged on ED</p>
<p>I also admit that I find gaming the system however legally, repugnant.
Our family went as far as to pay for K-12 for private for oldest, when she didn't qualify for the public school gifted program through their testing.
She did have an independent test that indicated she was in the .3%, but I reasoned if the classrooms were set up to teach to students who did well on the group administered test, then it probably wasn't her best fit.</p>
<p>However, obviously many feel that using the system to benefit themselves, is not only a good idea, but anything else is stupid</p>
<p>this comment was posted in response to Harvard dropping EA.
[quote]
Sorry guys but apparently you dont understand what a binding acceptance is. It isnt legally binding someone to attend a college. College isnt the military and accepting an offer doesnt force anyone to attend. Colleges hope that admits will feel morally bound to the agreement but nothing keeps students from continuing to shop for the best deal. </p>
<p>Some colleges and students might think that a list of students that have accepted is being passed among colleges, however federal law is fairly strict on student privacy so doing so would not be in the interest of the colleges. In this era it is only the stupid that takes a moral contract as law. The brightest will accept an offer, yet continue to field any other offer that might give them a better deal. Trying to live by some antiquated code of moral duty in a society that does not is simply stupid.
[/quote]
Sorry byron- if the choice is between being moral and being opportunistic, I will take moral. I like to sleep at night</p>
<p>If you can't afford to go to Columbia because of the cost, how can you afford to go anywhere else if it costs the same?</p>
<p>xiggi:</p>
<p>Do you have direct experience with ED that you can share?</p>
<p>I agree with JMMom that ED is OVERUSED. I am noticing that in certain "circles" it is as if kids/families feel they MUST have an early school. It is like the norm, the thing to do. I only think ED makes sense in certain situations...where there is a very very clear first choice, where other schools have been visited and the college process has been fully investigated well before senior year starts, where the family does not have a need to weigh FA offers, and when they are prepared to enroll if accepted and withdraw all other apps. But one doesn't HAVE to apply some place early. Yes, you get done with the whole thing earlier (if accepted) but there are drawbacks as well. I don't like how it is becoming the expected thing to do. I see posts by students on CC asking, "where should I apply early, X or Y?" as if they had to have an early school. If they don't know which one to pick....bingo....good reason to not apply ED anywhere. </p>
<p>JMmom, you are right....I don't kow the statistic but it surely is not 100% of those who got in ED end up matriculating. It is hard to say which reasons and processes occurred with those who did not matriculate. I have no information on that. As I gave one kid I know's account, they backed out based on the FA offer. So, they were able to do that. I personally feel she should not have applied ED given the need to weigh the FA package. But this is what they did. Granted it wasn't the Ivy League. As I said, it was at Wheaton College and she is now at UNH.
(lol...I just realized the UNH correlation with your family, and by coincidence, this girl's sister went to Bates!)</p>
<p>Jmmom, I disagree.</p>
<p>To those posters who insist that ED is a "contract"</p>
<p>I won't bore you with the details, as contract law is complex. Suffice to say that (1) kids under 18 can't execute valid contracts in many states. (2) your parents can, but they're not the ones going! And, as a matter of equity, few courts would recognize a contract that a parent enters into that would force their kids to do something. </p>
<p>regarding
[quote]
a set of terms offered by the college that you accept if you apply ED, and for which there is certainly consideration if in fact the college reviews the application on an expedited basis. That says "contract"
[/quote]
the problem is: what is the applicant agreeing to? to not apply elsewhere? to attend? to pay tuition? </p>
<p>And now for the final "contract' problem: the acceptance is conditional: it can be revoked for bad grades, for example. </p>
<p>I agree that, with some forms of documentation, with some schools, with some students over 18, a contract could perhaps exist. But in general? No way.</p>
<p>"xiggi: Do you have direct experience with ED that you can share?"</p>
<p>Sokkermom, great to see you taking a break from monitoring the life of Nifong and indicted Duke players.</p>
<p>Great to see you still hangin' around with the parents and not doing your homework.</p>
<p>You didn't really answer the question though. I am not convinced that anyone can be an expert in this particular area without direct experience.</p>
<p>One can argue forever about whether ED is an official contract. Still, the bottom line remains: The student and, I believe, their parents signed a document indicating that except for extraordinary circumstances, if the student was accepted, the student agreed to go to the college.</p>
<p>Regardless of whether this would ever go to court, if a student and their parents is of good character, they would not sign such a document if they felt that they were planning to back out or might back out for basically nonemergency reasons.</p>
<p>It's true that colleges aren't going to sue to make the students attend. However, colleges can pass the word to other colleges that a student backed out of ED, and many colleges that are at the same level will not accept the student or will rescind any acceptances. Consequently, typically, students who back out for nonemergency reasons will have their chances reduced of going to a college that is equivalent or better.</p>
<p>In addition, a GC whom a student has burned like this is not likely to go out of their way to be helpful. It's easy for a GC to pick up a phone and provide additional info to a college about a student's character and ethics. </p>
<p>Finally, the school and the GC may be punished by the college that the student backed out of going to. Even if a student is so selfish not to care about most of their classmates or their GC, such actions by a college have for the students' friends, younger siblings, etc. </p>
<p>Of course, too, parents who think it's OK for students to do this are also teaching their offspring that it's fine to back out of commitments and promises to the parents and to other people and institutions that the parents do care about. What goes around comes around.</p>
<p>*Suffice to say that (1) kids under 18 can't execute valid contracts in many states. (2) your parents can, but they're not the ones going! And, as a matter of equity, few courts would recognize a contract that a parent enters into that would force their kids to do something. *</p>
<p>however they can join the military at 17 with their parents permission</p>
<p>
[quote]
United States
The United States currently uses seventeen-year-olds in its armed forces, though not in combat situations. The United States military is based on voluntary recruitment, though minors must also must have parental permission to enlist (or permission of one's legal guardian in the absence of parents). Males under eighteen years of age are not draft eligible, and females are not eligible for conscription at any age. The United States military requires all soldiers to posess a highschool diploma or equivalent; this requirement may be waved for young soldiers for up to 180 days from the date of enlistment. In spirit, these policies ensure soldier maturity similarly to laws that would explicitly ban the use of minors in combat. The human rights organization Human Rights Watch reported:
The United States has emerged as the most vigorous opponent of establishing eighteen as the minimum age for military service, even though fewer than 3,000 members of its 1.3 million active duty force are minors.
In order to preserve its ability to make use of minors in the armed forces, the United States has refused to sign the Convention on the Rights of the Child, a convention ratified by every other recognized country in the world with the exception of Somalia.
However, the United States ratified the optional protocol on December 23, 2002. [5]
[/quote]
</p>
<p>JMmom, a lot of cross posting...so I want to add now that I agree that the question seems to deal with what actually happens in certain situations, as opposed to the stated policies since we know that not a full 100% of those admitted ED really do matriculate. Without first hand accounts, I don't know how any of us would know how anyone got out of ED and if they did, what happened to them with regard to other schools such as consequences, and same with at their respective HS and so on. </p>
<p>The thing is, however, even IF some people managed to get out of the binding agreement that is ED, it would be FOOLISH to enter into an ED agreement with ANY thoughts of possibly not taking it if X, Y, or Z reasons arise. In that regard the actual policies of what "should" happen as have been written here, should be weighed very carefully and taken seriously. Even if someone knows of a case of a kid who got out of it, generalizations can't be drawn (and schools differ as well) and it doesn't mean it will work the way you want in your own case. ED policies should be taken very seriously. I'm confident you agree. That's why discussing how some got out of ED can be dangerous because it can take away from the importance of the stated policies and how they are meant to be enforced. Exceptions happen everywhere in life. But one needs to go by the policy when deciding to enter into the ED agreement. To do otherwise, is quite risky. As Northstarmom also points out, it isn't ethical to enter into the agreement without 100% intent to follow through.</p>
<p>"Great to see you still hangin' around with the parents and not doing your homework.</p>
<p>You didn't really answer the question though. I am not convinced that anyone can be an expert in this particular area without direct experience."</p>
<p>Since you speak incessantly about the work of a DA in Durham, escort services, rapes at Duke, and other legal matters should I conclude that you have direct experience in the matters that have plagued the Plantation?</p>
<p>Since I do happen to have first-hand knowledge regarding the situation being discussed here, I will make this remark:</p>
<p>There is an underlying assumption that, in those few (at least, I believe they are few) cases where a student seeks to undo an ED commitment, there is a character flaw involved, a lack of ethics and unwillingness to honor morally binding, if not legally binding, agreements.</p>
<p>Were I to encounter a situation smacking of any of the above, I, too, would find it repugnant.</p>
<p>In the cases where I have first hand knowledge (and they are VERY VERY few), this was NOT the situation. These were situations which were unforeseen, although not necessarily of the sudden onset of dread disease or financial disaster. They involved honest mistakes, honestly entered into. They were cases where all involved, the families, the GC and ultimately even the college -although not at first- felt that a release from the ED was appropriate.</p>
<p>I do not wish to compromise anyone's privacy, but I will tell you this:</p>
<p>I know of one student who "reneged" on an ED acceptance, and attended another school. Who later wished to reconsider and apply to the ED school as a transfer. That student was accepted to the school. Could have knocked me over with a feather, but that is what happened.</p>
<p>Perhaps that case will allow all of you who think you know more than you know to see that these cases are different from what you are imagining.</p>
<p>Although I have some first-hand experiences with these situations, I would never dare to tell another individual what will happen if s/he wishes to undo the ED commitment. When approached, and I have been (which is why I have first-hand knowledge of some cases), I only give some ideas about what might happen. I don't understand why those with zero first-hand knowledge think they can tell people what <em>will</em> happen.</p>
<p>soozie, totally agree re your post #53. I even think you are probably right that it is inadvisable to post about how one "can" get out of an ED commitment, because it may encourage others to apply ED with the idea that they will have plans B,C,D and E in place if they change their minds.</p>
<p>However, it really gets my goat when people fairly bound up to the podium on this thread to hand out misinformation.</p>
<p>Xiggi's last post directed to me may be an excellent example of why parents get annoyed with students who continuosly post in the Parents forum. The comment is totally disrespectful, not related at all to the thread at hand, and is only written to agitate an adult poster. (that would be me)
My original post to him was a question, not meant to be anything more. Direct experience is more helpful than sheer conjecture and arrogance. I was offended by the way he was answering other parents too.
Maybe it is just me.</p>
<p>As such, all future comments directed to me by him will be ignored. :)</p>
<p>northstarmom,</p>
<p>please don't misunderstand. While I don't think ED is a contract, it IS a commitment. And yes, morality is important in education. Just look at the importance of honor codes etc. In fact, higher ed is built upon individual honesty and integrity, and colleges have high exacting standards, deservedly so.</p>
<p>And that is why the risk of backing out of an ED commitment is so high. Why brand onself as lacking integrity so early in one's career? And such things have a habit of showing up at the most awkward times, too, not just among adcoms. </p>
<p>Just think: Johnny (or Jane) backs out of ED. Goes on to a great undergrad career at state U. Becomes famous a few years later. Fame leads to memory flasback of old, grey-haired former adcom...</p>
<p>JMMom, I also agree with your most recent post. There likely are situations where students got out of the agreement that were on ethical terms, where the college, HS, etc. were OK about it, etc. So, again, generalizations can't be made. Simply, people should not enter into the agreement assuming it can be done, and surely not thinking it should be done. Stuff happens that is unforeseen. But starting the process with even an inkling of possibly backing out later...not a good or proper or wise way to go about it.</p>
<p>"Xiggi, Why is this paragraph so difficult to comprehend? It contradicts what you said."</p>
<p>Dstark, since I posted the ENTIRE paragraph, you may safely assume I understand what it says. Read what follows the selection you lifted from the paragraph and pay attention to the RELEASE provisions. </p>
<p>What are your options after applying ED to Columbia and asking for a release in December or January? Do you get a free pass? </p>
<p>Could you apply to schools comparable to Columbia in the ... same year? </p>
<p>Feel free to dance around the issue all you want. Does it matter that the contract is legally binding, morally binding, or a mere honor's agreement. The questions relate to the enforceability of specific performance more than to the nature of the "contract". There are reasons why the schools ask for various signatures on the ED application. Why would anyone discuss the terms of "release" if the contract/commitment was not binding?</p>
<p>The schools cannot force you to attend, but they have the distinct ability to cause severe repercussions to the student, the high school that sent a student who is not honorable or at least does not understand the implications of his ED choice, and lastly, to schools that would turn a blind eye to commitments of others. </p>
<p>Twist and shout all you want ... but pretending that applying ED does not carry a set of obligations and potential negative repercussions IS misleading. In addition, no amount of unverifiable anecdotes will change that. After all, we do not measure the applicability and effectiveness of laws based on the number of people who do not get caught or get away with ignoring them.</p>