Is this possible with ED decision that one can back out?

Parents Forum
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<p>1sokkermom, it's just like having a teenage boy living in your house again. The pleasure. :)</p>

<p>Just for you 1sokkermom...</p>

<p>from Xiggi's post 11...</p>

<p>Please note that the COLLEGE decides what is adequate, not the student nor his or her family. You do NOT get a free look at the financial package and then decide if you like it. If you're ACCEPTED, you have to withdraw all other applications. The financial circumstances for not accepting a financial package have to be extraordinary for the school to RELEASE you from your obligations. They do not have the obligation to do so, regardless of changing your decision. You made the decision when YOU applied. </p>

<p>Play games, and you'll get burned. It does not get any clearer than that.</p>

<p>What Columbia says...</p>

<p>"IT IS THE FAMILY?S DETERMINATION THAT THEY CANNOT AFFORD TO FINANCE A COLUMBIA EDUCATION THAT ALLOWS THEM TO BE RELEASED FROM THE BINDING EARLY DECISION ADMISSIONS OFFER. The family must first speak with a financial aid officer, before the release is finalized. Ultimately, it is the family?s decision whether or not they feel capable of accepting the need-based Columbia financial aid award."</p>

<p>:)</p>

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<p>I guess the real question is:</p>

<p>Does anyone really know of someone who after backing out of ED commitment for reasons not "acceptable", does anyone know of a student who was blackballed?</p>

<p>A student who backed out, and tried other schools, and was rejected....we know the student must have had someting to offer if accepted ED, but besides urban legend, has this really happened?</p>

<p>And how does it happen....a master list of ED non-committers sent to the admissions departments of all universities for them to cross check with RD applicants? Is a list of ED acceptances sent out to all other colleges in the country, and that list is cross referenced with the tens of thousands of applicants? And what if people have the same name, does someone sit there and see if the same person? If you have thousands and thousands of ED acceptances, how do schools know if that student has applied elsewhere afterwards?</p>

<p>I am serious, otherwise how would another school find out? How does ED school know where the student is applying? Who shares that information?</p>

<p>These are not rhetorical questions...I am really wondering about the logitics of it all...</p>

<p>I think backing out for not valid reasons shows lack of intergrity, but not the worst thing a person could ever do in....</p>

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<p>....And I do miss my son terribly. After all, I am "Sokkermommy-dearest". :)</p>

<p>(my poor daughter...........)</p>

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<p>Another rhetorical question - how many students/parents send in an ED application in some degree of ignorance and misinformation about how financing works at need only schools. I know that for many of you, it may seem impossible, but I've heard many. many parents talk about their child or the offspring of a friend getting a scholarship to Harvard or Duke or Vandy, and they truly are ignorant of the differences. To them "getting aid" means getting a scholarship, and is equal to what we here would call merit aid.</p>

<p>Now at my children's private school, I can't imagine the savvy college counselor letting anyone go through the process and remain in ignorance, but I can easily see kids from the local public schools honestly not understanding, and applying ED. We're not stupid, it's just that need-based aid is quite limited around here.</p>

<p>Finally, I'm not getting into the contract dispute, but i found it interesting that when my D applied ED to Dartmouth, I didn't sign anything, and I didn't see any attestation statement for the GC to sign, either. D checks a box and signed the application, period. Now, it was obvious to us that this was a commitment to attend with a moral obligation, but I can certainly see how an immigrant parent with limited English, for example could be misinformed, and with no GC help ????</p>

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<p>Yes, cgm, that is the real question.</p>

<p>I happen to know of applicants backing out where it "worked out," they were not black-balled, the ED school decided against contacting other schools.</p>

<p>So, if someone knows of the opposite case, they should post. Otherwise, it does descend to the level of urban legend, doesn't it?</p>

<p>My guess is it would have to be (1) egregious cases (2) where students were reneging in favor of a "superior" school/competitor school for the ED school to even bother. That is just my guess.</p>

<p>And I don't think that is the type of case that actually arises, despite the imaginings of those here on cc. I personally have never heard of one. Even though I've been contacted by several people contemplating backing out of the ED agreeement. None of them have been the kind of unethical gamers imagined here.</p>

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<p>1sokkermom, lol.</p>

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<p>(1) I have seen plenty of data on ED acceptances/matriculation, on a school by school basis, but never any aggregates. My memory is that it is completely consistent with the Columbia statement -- a gap of 1-5 individuals per school. At most. I have no idea what the basis for the 17% figure is, but it can't be true for the schools we have been discussing here.</p>

<p>(2) Of course people get out of their ED commitments. Colleges have little incentive to make it easy, but even less incentive to go to the mat if the family has a reasonable position and presents it in a reasonable way. Jmmom -- your story is COMPLETELY consistent with what I wrote: the adcomm goes to the guidance counselor first, and the GC (and school) are on the line. They have a strong, strong incentive to be completely honest with the ED college, and to police their students' conduct. If the HS can verify that there is a legitimate issue, why would the college be petty and jerky about it? Especially if the issue is coming up in December, when there's really no harm, no foul. So, yes, the ED agreement is not unbreakable, nor should it be. To that extent, xiggi is overstating it when he says that the college determines what is adequate. Sure, the college reserves the right to determine what is adequate, but it has nothing to gain by holding a family hostage if the family has any kind of legitimate issue.</p>

<p>(3) But dstark is implying something very different: That the ED rules are a bluff, and that people can call that bluff by flouting them and keeping RD applications alive, say, for the purposes of comparing financial aid offers. I don't know anyone who has done that, and the data don't suggest that there is some population out there doing it. It would take a lot of nerve, and I don't know who among the parents of the population that applies ED would want to see his or her child risk winding up with no acceptances and no financial aid offers from doing that, even if the risk was only 30-40%, not 100%.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Another rhetorical question - how many students/parents send in an ED application in some degree of ignorance and misinformation about how financing works at need only schools. I know that for many of you, it may seem impossible, but I've heard many

[/quote]
My guess? This type of thing is at the root of most ED changes of heart. ED, imho, is a situation where one party to the "agreement" is sophisticated, experienced, knowledgeable and has thought through all of the ins and outs of dozens if not hundreds of scenarios. The other party, whether the kid or his parents, is often very naive, having read the one or two-paragraph ED agreement and having no clue of what could transpire, what complications could arise.</p>

<p>You can say "caveat emptor." But we don't live in a caveat emptor society in virtually any other aspect of our culture anymore.</p>

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<p>JHS - agreed totally. We are on the same page. I had (mis)read your previous post to imply that the GC could only lose in the situation and hence the hs and future applicants as well. An ED applicant, wanting to back out, RISKS these consequences for the GC, high school and his peers. But it doesn't always work out badly.</p>

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<p>"As such, all future comments directed to me by him will be ignored."</p>

<p>Well, sokkermom, I've been ignoring you for the longest time. And, please do not reinvent the history. You have tried to make your "point" about students on the parents' forum ... by sending repeated attacks to a number of posters. When everyone was discussing the archetypes, you HAD to seize the opportunity to pack a bit of vitriol. When that did not work, you HAD to jump on the thread about etiquette. </p>

<p>As far as your question being innocent, you and I KNOW a lot better. As far as my comments about the Duke threads, let your past history of contribution serve as Exhibit A. </p>

<p>If you want respect, you'll have to make a modicum of efforts to earn it. Just as love, it only works well when the feelings are mutual.</p>

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<p>I am not implying anything. </p>

<p>I want to know which schools have taken actions.</p>

<p>I did not say anything about bluffing.</p>

<p>Wow.</p>

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<p>but I've heard many. many parents talk about their child or the offspring of a friend getting a scholarship to Harvard or Duke or Vandy, and they truly are ignorant of the differences</p>

<p>oh I agree
I have heard my daughters friends talk about older brother of so & so who got a full scholarship to harvard, and so they are quite confident they are available.
While it is certainly notable that he was accepted to Harvard, and I dont want to downplay that, I am also trying to let them know, that for those in a certain tax bracket, there aren't scholarships to need only schools.</p>

<p>Ive also heard parents talk about their kid getting a scholarship for college, since they didn't manage to save much. ( this was from an attorney couple)
I just pointed them to the CC site, since unless they are terrifically underacheving attorneys, I can't imagine their child will get as much as they expect from the schools they are looking at.
( and better they find out now, than tell her after admittance she can't go unless she takes out $100,000 in loans)</p>

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<p>If it is not a bluff, how does it work? Does a big list go around to the thousands of school?</p>

<p>And do school really cross check, becky here was accepted ED to Yale, but isn't going there and wants to go here....REJECTION?</p>

<p>And if private information was given to try and get out of committment, when information is shared with other schools about the backing out of ED, is that shared? And how does a school verify whether information given to get out of ED was correct? How does a family PROVE circumstances that in the following year, they can't pay....or that grandma is sick...do they demand proof?</p>

<p>I still wonder how the information gets passed around, and if anyone from an admission office of a school where a student who was accepted ED at another school, if anyone in that office has actually dealt with such an applicant.</p>

<p>It is a lot of talk about consequences for the few that don't do the right thing, but has anyone really talked to anyone who in any part of the equation- from applicant, to ED school, to RD school, to family</p>

<p>I think there should be consequences for those that are "gaming" the system, but really, what are they?</p>

<p>We hear the potential, but I am very curious as to how it happens....</p>

<p>My D is only applying EA, so not relevant to us at all...</p>

<p>We see all this "stuff" about no financial aid, not acceptances, not future for being tacky and immoral, but how does that all work?</p>

<p>And if the family really feels they have a valid reason to back out, and the school rejects that reason, does the school have a right to blackball that student and take the initiative to share their decision to not accept the "rejection of ED acceptence", and that student is rejected because of ED schools sharing of information (information that is a judgement call, not factual- ie a proven lie or fraud) does that student have recourse....I bet they would..</p>

<p>I again ask about the logistics of the information getting shared.</p>

<p>I am not trying to say, hey try it, they don't have any reall meat behind the threats, not at all, but I am really wondering how it all works....</p>

<p>Anyone?</p>

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<p>OMG, what if xiggi is really my son after all these posts? Now wouldn't that be embarassing??</p>

<p>"Just as love, it only works well when the feelings are mutual."</p>

<p>Just in case it is you son, I do love you..........keep posting.</p>

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<p>^ Parental humor. "Well, sokkermom, I've been ignoring you for the longest time."</p>

<p>That could definitely be a quote from my son. :)</p>

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<p>Okay I asked this in my abov post, but I don't want it to get lost, so will ask it alone:</p>

<p>IF the ED school notifies other schools that applicant backed out of commitment for reasons ED school does not find valid, but family DOES feel is valid, and down the road that student is rejected from schools because of the ED schools notification...if no fraud was involved, and student really felt they did not understand, no financial means or any other reason that to them matched the criteria for backing out of a contract that is really not legally enforceable except through fear...and that student's potential schooling is affected by ED schools reporting of something that, when you really look at it, is a pure judgement call...does that student have recourse with the ED school for "blackballing" student</p>

<p>This is why I think its a lot of urban legend about the consequences....that student could turn around and sue the ED school for slandering the student and preventing them from getting involved with future contracts</p>

<p>don't know much about contract law, but I think I am on the right track here</p>

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<p>city,</p>

<p>ever hear of email? That's how it gets around. Oh yes, the various adcoms have professional associations, too.</p>

<p>And no, they don't need to circulate all the names, only the ones that back out, a small list.</p>

<p>Finally, what do you think the family of the kid that gets bounced is going to say? That johnny's acceptance was revoked because of a broken ED commitment? No, the family will first say johnny is taking a gap year. Then, they'll slowly fade into the woodwork as johnny heads to the state U. There are enough strange legit things that happen late in the game, that blending in these things is easy.</p>

<p>No wonder we don't hear about it!</p>

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<p>And is a contract valid when the recourse taken is fear, intimidation, and future benefits?</p>

<p>Even morally binding? If I go into a contract or commitment and am told that if I change my mind, all other schools will reject me, is that binding</p>

<p>From what I remember about contract law, a contract is not enforceble if intimidation is used, and that is what I would call intimidation</p>

<p>there is no $ involved, nor is there any other recourse for the school but to ban the student from other schools, and is that legally? </p>

<p>and if a school sends out the word and slanders someone, is the school legally protected?</p>

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<p>Email? To who, all colleges in the country?</p>

<p>I just am really thinking about this...the ED student doesn't have to back out right away, they can wait, so the ED list of accepted students is fairly large, and it is a judgement call on the ED schools part if student has a valid reason to back out, and I don't imagine that they blackball students...because if they did, I can guarantte you that if the family felt they had just cause to back out and the school rejected that cause, that family would sue, I know I would if it affected my childs chances at other schools</p>

<p>I really wonder if the information is shared via email, anything concrete...</p>

<p>On this anonymous site, with the varied experiences, not one person can come up with someone who was blackballed for backing out ED?</p>

<p>We read about the threats, etc, but if the ED school is wrong in its assessment for reasons for backing out, and spreads its around, they are setting themselves up for a lawsuit and recourse by the family...that is why I really wonder if they actually do contact other schools and if other schools reject kids on that basis, because to do so is really opening up doors to having it come back at ED school...rejecting someone from your own school is fine, but to set it up and inform other schools so that they will reject also...well...</p>

<p>hmmmmmm</p>

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<p>Just think about it....the backing out is ALL about opinions, perception, and the "valid" reasons are not written in stone, they are flexible, they are open to interpretation, and as such, if a school blackballs a student because they didn't find the reason "valid" enough, but the family felt it was....where does that leave student</p>

<p>Say College A-ED is rejected by student because of $ (who is to say that is not a valid reason) and then student applies to School B-RD after rejecting School A (if Shcool A does not accept rejection) does school A contact everyschool in the country? And if school B does reject student based on School As interpretation of reasons not being "valid", doesn't student have recourse if they really feel school A slandered them....</p>

<p>That is why I really wonder if there is this list of ED students who backed out going around...it sets the schools up to have legal consquences come BACK at them for stopping someone from entering into other commitments, </p>

<p>that is why I really wonder about the idea of "blackballing" really happening...to much danger to an ED school to put themselves out there in order to "punish" a person to prove a point...and if a school ACCEPTS the ED schools OPINIONS...that also puts the RD school in a vulnerable position, with this psuedo contract that really is all threat with no legal backbone</p>