Is this possible with ED decision that one can back out?

Parents Forum
81

<p>CGM,</p>

<p>Surely you are kidding?</p>

<p>This is getting to the point of angels on a pinhead, IMHO. </p>

<p>Most colleges are glad to get any warm, well qualified body that's willing to pay enough $$. Most students are glad to get into prestige U. </p>

<p>IMHO, the reason we don't hear about it is because (1) backing out is rare. and (2) who wants to admit they lie or cheat (in backing out?).</p>

<p>Let's use some common sense here. This is not about contracts, enforceabililty, coercion and so forth. It is about integrity.</p>

<p>But, if you want to talk contracts, tell me how many colleges enforce the "contract" to attend that a family enters into when sending an enrollment deposit? Housing deposit? and so forth.</p>

82

<p>"And if school B does reject student based on School As interpretation of reasons not being "valid", doesn't student have recourse if they really feel school A slandered them...."</p>

<p>No. Private colleges can admit/deny whomever they choose.</p>

<p>The students who back out of ED for flimsy reasons always can go to either public universities (which admit primarily based on stats, and don't care whether students backed out of ED) or lower tier schools, which may be happy to land a student whose stats are higher than the college's average.</p>

<p>Meanwhile, anyone who's reading this thread is free to personally find out what happens when one backs out of ED for reasons that colleges believe are flimsy. The consequences will be theirs as will their reputation for a lack of integrity.</p>

83

<p>" just am really thinking about this...the ED student doesn't have to back out right away, they can wait, so the ED list of accepted students is fairly large, and it is a judgement call on the ED schools part if student has a valid reason to back out, and I don't imagine that they blackball students...because if they did, I can guarantte you that if the family felt they had just cause to back out and the school rejected that cause, that family would sue, I know I would if it affected my childs chances at other schools."</p>

<p>There would be absolutely no proof, so the family would have no reason to sue. Also, think about it: Who would want to be the subject of media attention for suing for this kind of reason -- a reason that many college and graduate admissions officers would believe reflected a lack of character?</p>

<p>The colleges that accept students ED pass around a list of their ED accepted students to colleges that tend to compete with them. There's nothing wrong with doing this. College acceptances aren't state secrets. Admissions officers also know each other and can pass info by word of mouth.</p>

<p>A great example of all of this is what happened about 3 years ago when Harvard allowed students to apply EA while applying elsewhere binding ED. Some students tried to back out of their ED admissions in order to go to Harvard. Harvard then promptly revoked their admissions. No evidence anyone sued. Some such students ended up at state Us. There are stories about this in CC's archives and you also can find info on the Internet.</p>

<p>I'm sure that if anyone had sued, it would have made the national press.</p>

84

<p>Integrity, I get it, but we keep hearing, oh, they contact other schools, you get no financial aid, everyone with reject you, and morals aside, do those threats really have any merit or meat?</p>

<p>I just don't think a school would risk something coming back to them by going to other institutions out of hand</p>

<p>If a school B came to school A and said, what happened here, school A has every right to be honest, and say, this happened and this is how we saw it, but to arbitraily go out and send emails to everyone because you and a student disagreed about what was a "valid" reason to back out, I just don't by it</p>

<p>A contract between a student and one school is very different from a non-legally binding check mark agreeing to something with the only recourse a threat of black balling student to other schools....</p>

<p>And the contract involves $, housing, saving class space etc at that one institution, that is very different from a threat of going out and making sure a student goes no where to school if they back out of an agreement that has no legal recourse...what legal recourse does a school have if a student backs out ED? none, jsut threats to make their life miserable</p>

<p>I think a student should honor their commitment to the best of their ability when applying ED....but that is still a judgement call in many cases</p>

<p>It is about intergrity, but is intergrity a legal term? And if you cannot see the difference between a legal contract for something real- housing, classes, etc., and a moral contract, use some common sense</p>

<p>And if some one does not use integrity (again a judgement call,not a legal call) does the person on the other side of the "agreement" have the right to blackball a person? </p>

<p>and yes, I would think that we would hear about the consequences of emailing, no finanical aid, etc actually happening to an ED kid who backed out for "non valid" reasons if it actually happened..</p>

<p>My instincts and logic tell me school threaten, but then either back down and accept the backing out even if they don't like the reasons, and if they SAY they aren't letting you out, don't really follow through in most cases of blackballing and being accused of slander</p>

<p>threats are great, they often work, but that is ALL ED has as a recourse</p>

85

<p>Yes schools can reject anyone they want, of course</p>

<p>They can also send around lists of accepted ED students</p>

<p>They can also send around a list of student who backed out of ED</p>

<p>BUT, do they REALLY send around a list of kids who backed out ED for "bad" reasons, which are up to the college to interprut</p>

<p>As for lack of integrity, how does a ED school PROVE that? Private detectives? Seriouslly, what consittutes flimsy?</p>

<p>That is why I really don't think a list of kids with flimsy excuses is sent around and that much of this is urban myth to a degree</p>

<p>Harvard ALLOWED something to happen... and then punished the kids? okay........</p>

86

<p>"If a school B came to school A and said, what happened here, school A has every right to be honest, and say, this happened and this is how we saw it, but to arbitraily go out and send emails to everyone because you and a student disagreed about what was a "valid" reason to back out, I just don't by it"</p>

<p>I don't think that's what happens. I think the colleges send lists of ED admissions to colleges where their applicants typically also apply. For instance, Brown U knows that many students who apply to Brown also would apply to other Ivies, and are likely to accept Harvard or Yale over Brown, so Brown could send lists of its ED admissions to Harvard and Yale. Harvard and Yale, seeing a student has a Brown ED admit, might simply decide to reject the student even though otherwise they may have accepted the student.</p>

<p>I suspect that years ago, this happened to a relative, who got into Brown ED and then decided to apply regular to Harvard. She was a URM, top private school, parent who was wealthy and a celebrity, and she had great stats and ECs, but was rejected at Harvard (and possibly other Ivies). She went to Brown, which probably was delighted that she had applied ED.</p>

87

<p>I know you only suspect the situation, NSM. But are you saying that you think this relative (1) applied and was accepted ED to Brown, (2) still submitted or failed to withdraw an RD app to Harvard, (3) that Harvard knew of the ED acceptance via the "circulated list" and decided not to accept her, but that (4) Brown still allowed her to matriculate. IE, Harvard never told Brown of the violation, or Brown didn't care?</p>

88

<p>"I know you only suspect the situation, NSM. But are you saying that you think this relative (1) applied and was accepted ED to Brown, (2) still submitted or failed to withdraw an RD app to Harvard, (3) that Harvard knew of the ED acceptance via the "circulated list" and decided not to accept her, but that (4) Brown still allowed her to matriculate. IE, Harvard never told Brown of the violation, or Brown didn't care?</p>

<p>Yes, after she applied and was accepted ED to Brown, she applied RD to Harvard. I know that she didn't withdraw her H app because she told me that when she visited me there during her senior year in h.s. The only reason that I can imagine that H didn't accept her was that they learned about her Brown ED acceptance. It wouldn't have been hard for them to find that out about even without any circulated list. These were the days in which colleges fought over and sought out URMs even more than occurs today.</p>

<p>I imagine that Brown decided to overlook her transgression. She was a wonderful catch for them. There aren't too many URMs who also are highly qualified and can be development cases, too.</p>

89

<p>"As for lack of integrity, how does a ED school PROVE that? Private detectives? Seriouslly, what consittutes flimsy?"</p>

<p>But why should the colleges bother to investigate. The very top colleges - the ones that people probably are most likely to back out of ED to try to go to -- already have an overabundance of high stat applicants. Why take someone whose ethics are questionable (which is implied if the college sees the student's name on another college's ED admit list) when there are plenty of other highly qualified applicants without questionable ethics who can be admitted?</p>

<p>The top colleges also all offer to meet 100% of demonstrated financial need, so they know that if finances were a problem at one college, they'll certainly be a problem for theirs. (They also know that colleges that promise to meet 100% of demonstrated financial need certainly would give decent aid to ED admits, whom obviously they think highly enough of to admit early). </p>

<p>The top collegs also would assume that if there truly were a valid reason for the student to back out (such as if the student wanted to go to college near a parent who had recently become ill), the student or their GC would have informed the RD college about the situation. </p>

<p>Consequently, it would be no trouble at all for the college to simply shift the student into the reject pile.</p>

90

<p>Last year when S was going through admission process a friend of mine had a S accepted ED at a school. He kept all of his apps out and she kept calling me when he was admitted to each additional school. I questioned her and she no longer speaks to me...says that I was questioning her integrity...she got that right!</p>

91

<p>foto-- sounds like a good person to have as a former friend!</p>

92

<p>I think when I posted this thread to find out if I did not know the answer. I got the answwer as I always thought ED is " MY QUOTE"
[QUOTE]
morally

[/QUOTE]
binding if not legally.</p>

<p>It may be legally okay to break ED but I feel it is a trust one build in life. Why break a trust one generate with other people for a college admission. I feel it is even not worthwhile to create problems for your GC who helped you so much in the process and may result in penalizing other kids who will applly next year. These friends will remember that a person who break ED is not trust worthy. So unless a other IVy college publicly says they will not honor ED policy of other school, it is not a good idea to break ED for an individual to violate their own honor code. Thanks</p>

93

<p>Another possible scenario (the way NSM's example could have gone) is: Kid is accepted ED to Princeton, applies and accepted RD to Harvard. Dumps Princeton for Harvard. Princeton tells Harvard that it had accepted this kid ED. Both Harvard and Princeton rescind their offers of admission. In this case, there is no need for names to be passed around via email. </p>

<p>(I know there are admissions reps who cruise this message board. They could possibly answer our questions, but they are very quiet.) </p>

<p>I think that if and whenever these situations arise, they are handled on a case-by-case basis, so there are no hard and fast rules. Deciding to apply ED while also planning to submit RD aps is risky. If you are a gambler, you can do it. I don't know what the odds are at Vegas casinos, but given the odds of getting into selective schools these days, I'd say only a gambler should decide to game the system like this. You could end up happy at the school of your choice, or at the local community college.</p>

94

<p>but if they break early decision due to money, it is okay right?</p>

<p>trust as nothing to do with that, maybe poor planning, but not trust</p>

<p>and where in the colleges sites do they say they will notify other schools of what you have done</p>

<p>I jst read the Harvard site and it says, we will rescind you even if you apply EA or ED anywhere else, bu nothing about telling others if you back out</p>

<p>that seems pretty dishonest to me...if they are going to report your decision to back out of ED, then they should warn you that they will notify other schools...., seems only right, don't you think?</p>

<p>if you want truthfulness and honesty, then the ED schools need to say, yes, we will notify other schools if you back out with a flimsy excuse, that is very different from telling other schools who you accepted</p>

<p>Princeton's doesn't say what the punishment will be</p>

<p>So if you break the rule, which you should not do, as I have said before, there is no real clear
"punishment", and the notifications to others is really behind the students back, as it is not stated in the application that other schools will be notified if you back out</p>

<p>So, while I do not agree that students should play the system, I do think that any real meat for most applicants is not existant, and schools really want things clear, and state what they require and demand, their follow through is vague at best</p>

95

<p>Let me be clear, if a student applies ED, and then holds all his other apps out there and continues his ED, not the right thing to do, however, I just don't believe, except for a few, flagrant, obvious cases, does the school track down the students applications....if there is even an iota of truth in why a student is withdrawing from ED, does the school take the time to make someone life miserble....</p>

<p>We keep hearing- no financial aid, no accepts, no nada, but I would bet those cases of "bad" backing out really do not get followed through with emails, calls....</p>

96

<p>


Yes, this has been my observation. Schools look the other way on ED violations if it serves their purposes. It's one of the things that really bugs me, personally, about the ED "commitment." Although I don't have first hand knowledge or experience of this particular aspect, it seems that schools will let you out of the commitment if it's for a "lesser" school, but not if it's for a peer or "superior" school. Just another aspect of ED that I think reflects a non-level playing field between the two parties to the "agreement."</p>

97

<p>Sorry, i would just like to go back to the OP's question for a bit.</p>

<p>BOTTOM LINE: if I was accepted ED, i DO NOT have 2-3 weeks to decide whether or not i want to apply. Thus, this "window" of time is nonexistant. so the Penn forum person is wrong.</p>

<p>(Considering that i have no family tragedy, illness. etc.)</p>

98

<p>Correct. If you apply ED, you are committed. Since we don't currently have a method for you to instantaneously "beam" your deposit to UPenn, they give you two weeks time to do this. It is merely a matter of logistics. It is not a time to think over your options.</p>

99

<p>But wouldn't it be nice if colleges were more open about what "demonstrated need" really means? I've been to 20+ info sessions, most of them "guaranteeing to meet 100% of demonstrated need" and none of them explaining that this probably doesn't apply to most people in the room unless they'd like to take out $100,000+ in student loans!</p>

<p>I was totally shocked when friends with older kids than mine started telling me they qualified for exactly 0$$$ in need-based aid. And I didn't know until I'd spent countless hours lurking around CC that merit aid at most top tier schools is also non-existent. No wonder if people go into the application process dazed and confused.</p>

100

<p>I'm only a hgh school senior but my Dad has already visited and reviewed the FAFSA and CSS Profile forms/web sites. He filled them out and guesstimated the family EFC. There is also a Princeton web site: </p>

<p><a href="http://www.princeton.edu/main/admission-aid/aid/prospective/estimator/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.princeton.edu/main/admission-aid/aid/prospective/estimator/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>that will give a good approximation of your EFC. This is not an exact science by any means, but it shouldn't be a total mystery either.</p>