<p>Not getting yelled at by me. Just don't agree with some of your statements. If someone is at the point of doing something that he knows is not according to the rules because he just feels that the rule not important to him, he may well want to know what the worst possible consequence would be. And it is true that the worse possible consequence COULD be that no one will let you in where you want to go. As to whether it is a contract or an agreement is a matter of semantics; I've heard it called both by those in the business of admissions.<br>
The kids who contemplate playing this game usually have a very bright future. To be in play for many of the colleges that have early programs, means that you have a good profile. Why the heck screw things up at this point doing something so foolish and dishoenst? Unfortunately for many kids this age, some of them who will become honest, upstanding adults, they are at a time in their lives where they will contemplate doing things like this especially when they get wind that "everybody" is doing it and "nobody" gets caught, and that there is not much of a system in place for catching such cheaters. The only thing that makes a difference with these kids is that there is a real chance of getting caught, not just a flukey rumor or a series coincidences. Just like there can be real consequences for doing any number of wrong things. It is unfortunate that the fist has to be shown, but it is no different than for other transgression with kids or even with people in general.</p>
<p>Susan, there are a lot of "I thinks" in your post #116, but not many "I knows".</p>
<p>Northstarmom, used the example of the Brown kid (9/26 11:55 AM). Well, guess what? The kid's punishment was an acceptance to Brown.</p>
<p>I would love to know who was punished because some other kid violated ED at the same high school. I read that all the time on this board so it must happen over and over.</p>
<p>Early Decision Policy Clarified
Harvard issues statement saying it will uphold admissions status quo
Published On Friday, July 26, 2002 12:00 AM
By DAN ROSENHECK
Crimson Staff Writer</p>
<p>After weeks of speculation that Harvard would allow students who had been accepted under binding Early Decision programs at other colleges to enroll at Harvard, the Office of Admissions and Financial Aid released a statement last week saying Harvard will honor the Early Decision system.</p>
<p>“It is our expectation that students admitted elsewhere under binding Early Decision will honor their previous commitment and not matriculate at Harvard,” the statement said.</p>
<p>While the statement “recommends” applying to Harvard under Regular Action “for students who are applying already to a binding Early Decision college and must withdraw from Harvard [and all other colleges] once admitted,” it did not make clear how the College would treat students who tried to break binding early commitments and attend Harvard.</p>
<p>But Director of Admissions Marlyn McGrath Lewis ’70-’73 said that if such a case arose, Harvard would “certainly consider rescinding their admission” and “will not allow the student to enroll.”</p>
<p>The policy does not represent a departure from past practice, as the National Association of College Admissions Counselors voted last fall to allow high school students to apply to both an Early Decision and an Early Action school with the caveat that the Early Decision application “supersedes” all others. McGrath Lewis said she does not “think there was any support for [the] idea” of permitting students accepted under Early Decision elsewhere to enroll.</p>
<p>But last month, two members of the Standing Committee on Admissions and Financial Aid said that Harvard was strongly considering allowing students accepted under Early Decision elsewhere to enroll and that the idea had wide support among faculty.</p>
<p>Rotch Professor of Atmospheric and Environmental Science Steven C. Wofsy, a member of the committee, said at the time that he did not believe the College would recognize other schools’ Early Decision programs as overriding Harvard’s right to enroll a student.</p>
<p>“As far as I know, that honoring procedure is out the window for next year,” Wofsy said. McGrath Lewis declined comment on June 6.</p>
<p>Besides the advantage of enabling the College to enroll any student it wanted, the proposed new policy also would have shielded Harvard from the potential claim that it was violating antitrust law in enforcing the contracts of other colleges by preventing students who had made other commitments from attending the College.</p>
<p>But McGrath Lewis said Harvard would deny admission to candidates accepted under other colleges’ Early Decision programs not because another school was requiring them to attend but because the attempted breach of contract demonstrated dishonesty on their part.</p>
<p>“If we admitted someone and then found out they murdered someone, we probably would rethink that case as well,” she said. “It is not proper for us to be enforcing or policing other institutions’ rules, but we are very concerned about the ethical behavior of students who might be Harvard students.”</p>
<p>Had Harvard decided to break with the status quo, it would have had dire implications for the Early Decision system, which benefits schools who are guaranteed that they were the first choice of a substantial percentage of their applicants and thus have higher yields than they otherwise would. </p>
<p>If they could no longer be certain that students they accepted early would attend, they would have to accept and waitlist more students under regular decision.</p>
<p>(even Harvard has conflict in the ranks- but as I said, this affects very few who pull out....and it is bad to try and play the system, but if you were accept ED to harvard and don't want to go, other schools will probably take you anyway- that is allI am saying- all morals arguments aside</p>
<p>I just see that its a small little world that punishes the ED scafflaws and the threat of no one will ever take you is just hot air)</p>
<p>Dstark, I do know kids who have gotten postcards letting them know that their app has been withdrawn since they were accepted ED at a school, and the kids had not bothered to let those other schools know. Some schools may not bother with that courtesy. I think you are asking too much on a for an a public discussion board for someone like me to list the students names and phone numbers and other private info so that YOU or some other doubting Thomas can verify this info. That is not a burden of proof I have seen for any post here.</p>
<p>If you want some verification, I suggest you e-mail Michelle Hernandez's college consulting service and ask her specifically about the "list" . She does answer single inquiries, and as a former adcom at an ivy she would be aware of the situation. You can also ask a counselor here. </p>
<p>It is possible for someone who applies to all selective schools such as Soozievt's daughter a Brown did, to be dropped from them all because of pulling a stunt like that. Is the punishment a "ruined" future? No. People get over worse. But in my book, for a kid who has a real chance at a bunch of schools he has decided may be his future for the next 4 years, it is a pretty dire punishment to have to start from scratch at applying for colleges late in the year. If the gc has a dim view of such stufff, he may well end up sitting out the year contemplating the of his deed. Heck, your future is not necessarily "ruined" even if you get caught and convicted of a feloney, but you are going to be riding a rough path for a while dragging your family along. And these are the years where the mental and emotional states are in flux, and mood disorders are developing. You don't need any more stress especially something that labels you as a "cheat". The kids I have seen who have had severe mental problems are those who often commit some stupidity or wrong doing and have trouble swallowing the consequences even though their futures are not ruined. Why the heck do something so foolish?<br>
The cross checking of ED acceptances at many of the selective colleges is NOT an urban legend. Check out Snopes! (hee, hee)</p>
<p>cptofthehouse, Do you know of anybody who has been affected because of the actions of another student involving ed?</p>
<p>In case others don't know what happened after Harvard allowed students to apply there EA when they'd applied elsewhere ED, Harvard ended that policy after a year, and went back to single choice Early Action (not allowing students to apply there EA while applying elsewhere EA or ED).</p>
<p>It made the change after a lot of students tried to game the system by backing out of ED commitments after getting Harvard EA acceptances. In those situations, Harvard rescinded their EA acceptances, and in some cases, the students were forced to go to relatively low ranked public universities. </p>
<p>I'm sure that if you use a search engine, you can learn about some of those situations.</p>
<p>A further update is that as of next year, Harvard will not be having EA at all. It is ending that option because it believes that EA and ED are not fair to disadvantaged students.</p>
<p>So Harvard itself was kind of going around the rule, and many of its staff had no problem with ignoring others ED commitments, at least in meetings, what came out in public was supporting the EDs of other schools, but behind the scenes no such consensus</p>
<p>Public outcry and stance is not reality</p>
<p>And after years of ED, they figure out NOW that is has created a class-admissions system...well DUH....</p>
<p>"So Harvard itself was kind of going around the rule, and many of its staff had no problem with ignoring others ED commitments, at least in meetings, what came out in public was supporting the EDs of other schools, but behind the scenes no such consensus"</p>
<p>But when push came to shove, Harvard did support other schools' ED commitments. </p>
<p>I have no idea why for one year they allowed students to apply EA and ED. It looked like an invitation for students to be unethical. I thought it was an obvious mistake then, and I was very happy that they ended that experiment.</p>
<p>"And after years of ED, they figure out NOW that is has created a class-admissions system...well DUH...."</p>
<p>I'm just glad that they ended EA because that's causing other colleges to consider ending their ED and EA systems. Frankly, I didn't find EA to be that bad since students didn't have to commit early, though I do notice that even at Harvard, it gave an admission advantage to early applicants.</p>
<p>No. I only know that kids received postcards from colleges where they had applied RD and had not notified thse schools of an ED acceptance. It made them very jumpy, and they suspected that the gc had notified those other schools, which had not happened, or so the gc said. Checking around with kids at other high schools verified that it was not a one school incident. Counselors at highschools do not notify colleges of these things but urge their students to do so themselves. Just as they do not notify colleges that a student had accepted an offer at a college at the end of the season. It is a courtesy the student is supposed to do, and many don't. The students in question, were not playing a game. They were just lazy and had not gotten around to letting the RD schools know, or were not going to bother. All went to their ED schools which were their first choices and were top colleges. GCs are not notified most of the time when students are accepted to a given college and have to depend on the students telling them this info. On rare occaisions a counselor may have a personal relationship with an Adcom and get the info early--this happens more often in private schools dealing with smaller colleges where there is a lot of going back and forth. But even those schools, request an acceptance letter before attributing an acceptance from a college to a student. Too many mistakes, and misrepresentations can be made. For example, many more kids say they are waitlisted, than are. It just sounds better.<br>
Do not take my word for the ED list. I do know some particulars about it, but anyone doubting this should check with a face, a body, a person in the business---a highschool gc or college ADCOM or private counselor. I already gave the "A is for Admissions" cite.<br>
As for anyone who has been affected by the actions of another student whether it is from a tell tale note or earlier students' behaviours during the admissions process with a highschool gc not backing up the rules, I have not seen the proof with my own eyes. High schools that have a history of getting many kids into selective schools tend to be jumpy about students disobeying the college app rules, because they feel it can affect future applications. I have heard GCs make that statement, but never knew of any specific case down to the name of the student. (but yes, the name of the GC). I can also tell you that unlike for the consequences for a specfic student double dipping in ED, I feel that it unfair for future students to be blackballed by colleges because they are from a school that has a reputation of not monitoring foul play enough. But I can see that it could happen , and it is a real voice fear of GCs. I don't know how you can get proof on stuff like that anyways. Colleges usually do not give specific reasons as to why a qualified student was not accepted especially if it a reason they do not want to discuss farther. Selective college reject so many qualified kids that unless they give the reason, you can speculate all day.<br>
Also from the Harvard announcement, it is clear that this double dipping does occur and Harvard does find out about it since it had to make a decision as to what to do with those kids accepted to more than one school. I'm sure there are some kids licking their wounds who were accepted to Harvard, and lost their spot because the also applied ED. And it is possible that the ED school refuses to let them in also, which could put them in limbo.
Colleges are not into punitive measures as a rule, and hate to do these things. The Harvard EA is particularly something controversial as it is one of very few single choice EAs, and there are kids who do not read the instructions and do not know. I have seen posts on CC where kids apply EA to Harvard and to other schools blithely saying so with no idea. I know that Princeton's single app ED which did not permit other early actions is a problem too--that one I did not even catch immediately upon reading the instructions. So there is some confusion with SCEA. ED has been around for many, many years, and because of the binding contract that you, your parent, your gc has to sign, it is difficult to claim that all three of you did not get it.</p>
<p>Northstarmom, too many kids were unclear about SCEA when it first came out as it was a novel idea. Even some GCs were not clear about it. As I said earlier, colleges, particularly schools like Harvard are not trying to be vindictive when there was a good chance things were confusing. When the numbers show that too many people did not get it, they were willing to admit that it was a confusing situation. Even now there are those who find SCEA confusing, and there are those at Harvard that feel that way.</p>
<p>Personally, I felt SCEA was confusing and unnecessary for a school like Harvard to be having such a program. They could have kept things simple and gone EA like many other schools. I think some of these special programs like "interim decision", or schools with EA and ED are adding confusion to the pot, and it is entirely possible for people to get confused. But ED has been clear for years, and the gcs are very aware of it, and I have not known a highschool that does not warn about the drawbacks of Ed and that you can get bitten if you try to back out.</p>
<p>I've been lurking on this thread for a while, and I have to throw in my simplistic, black & white two cents. If you apply ED, agree to attend the school if accepted and sign a paper indicating your intent, what difference does it make whether the school can ruin your life, seek revenge on your GC or blackball your school if you renege? </p>
<p>The fact is that if you back out without a good reason, you've gone back on your word, and doesn't that count for something? Is getting caught the only thing that makes something wrong? Wrong is wrong whether you're caught or not. </p>
<p>Must go put the soapbox away now.</p>
<p>NSM: MOST schools allow kids to apply both ED and EA. The protocol is that an ED acceptance trumps all, so there's no reason not to allow both. The only exceptions I know to this are the SCEA schools (HYS), some but not all of the Ivies with ED (Princeton and Brown, but not Columbia), and Georgetown won't let kids into its EA process if they've applied ED elsewhere. ED Columbia / EA Chicago and/or MIT is a very popular strategy.</p>
<p>CGM: Here's how I read the Harvard story. Harvard NEVER allowed other schools' ED acceptees to matriculate. People at Harvard considered doing that (but ultimately the institution decided not to), for what appears to be two very different reasons: (1) the ED system is evil, and Harvard may have been able to kill it by refusing to go along, and (2) the attorneys were concerned that mutual ED enforcement would violate the consent decree the Ivies entered into a decade ago after they were sued on their financial aid collusion. Discussing something on those bases is very different from being willing to sneak around.</p>
<p>dstark: The colleges that report ED acceptances/matriculations report a difference of no more than 1-5 individuals per year. Turning down an ED acceptance for any reason, good or bad, isn't a widespread phenomenon at all, and there is no basis to believe that 99%+ of those onesie-twosie cases aren't perfectly legitimate from everyone's standpoint. So of course, "punishment" for ED violations is probably as rare as hen's teeth, because there is no evidence that there ARE any appreciable number of ED violations.</p>
<p>But that doesn't mean that the threat of punishment doesn't affect people's behavior. To give a well-known example, the U.S. has only used its nuclear weapons arsenal twice (and the second time was probably unnecessary), both a long time ago, and no other country (including Israel, Pakistan, China, Russia) has EVER used the nuclear weapons it has. Does that lead you to conclude that those countries' nuclear capacity is irrelevant in strategic calculations involving them? If you think that, you would be wrong.</p>
<p>But if you think that, you would probably be closer to right than you would be if you think that no one ought to take the threat of punishment by ED schools seriously. Nuclear weapons have the inconvenience of lots of externalities, like nuclear winter, mass destruction, etc. Trashing a single applicant, or giving one school's GC the cold shoulder, is a much more practical deterrent than nuclear weapons.</p>
<p>I think the system works extremely well to make actual enforcement almost completely unnecessary. (1) From the kid's standpoint, even if you think there's only a 5-10% chance that the ED school will follow through on its explicit or implied threat, that looks an awful lot like playing Russian Roulette with your future. The population of ED applicants is almost by definition risk-averse: they want a better chance, and they want certainty, and are willing to compromise choice for it. So how many of them are actually going to put the gun to their heads and pull the trigger just because all the chambers aren't loaded? How much does the payoff have to be? (2) From the college's standpoint, as long as the numbers of ED renegers remains very low, there's no need to act tough, as long as you don't make things too easy. Most renegers will have a decent reason for reneging (including "I didn't understand this"), and most colleges will accept it. (3) Plus, HS GCs will do most of the enforcement work anyway. They will ensure that kids don't apply ED on the theory they can renege later, and they will put a lot of pressure on kids thinking about it not to renege. They will do that because most of the ED population comes from relatively wealthy private and public schools where the GCs and schools work very, very hard to gain and to keep the trust of admissions officers at desirable colleges, and any threat to that trust, however small, strikes at the very core of what those schools offer. So even if a kid is willing to play Russian Roulette, because he has something to gain, his GC will not go along, because HE has nothing to gain and may well lose his job if anyone senses that he no longer has credibility at, say, Amherst. The GC doesn't have to do a whole lot of investigating to know what other colleges a kid has applied to. Thus, in the unlikely event things ever get this far, it is probably the GC who first says, "You know, Kid, this is unethical, and if you don't do the right thing I am going to be honor bound to tell College Y that you are violating College X's ED policy." And the problem goes away, and College X hasn't lifted a finger.</p>
<p>From "A is for Admissions":</p>
<p>"So is there any news at all that is shared among colleges?.......In fact, until this spring conference, there is no communication at all among Ivy League schools or among other highly selective colleges, except for the one case I will mention short. The plain truth is that everyone is too busy trying to get thousands of applicatons processed, read, and decided upon before the April mail date.</p>
<p>The only information that is shared among all highly selective colleges is a list of those students accepted early decision or early action, because fo the commitment on the student's part to honor the agrement. When Dartmouth finishes its final decisions for the early-decision applicants it mails a list to the Ivies and other highly selective colleges (most of the ones listed in the introduction, as well as others that hae early-action or early-decision programs) so that systems technicians can run the names through the computer and check to see if anyone who is already committed toattending Dartmouth has applied early action or early decision somewhere ele. Most of the other colleges would do the same, thereby making sure the student follow the rules.
The moral fo the story is that you should not be paranoid about communication among colleges, because it simply does not happen. You shuld be careful to follow the rules for early action or early decision. You cannot be accepted at two early-decision colleges and then weigh your best financial-aid offer. When the colleges find out, they might both decide to rescind their acceptance, so you would b left with no college. In some cases, you can apply early action and early decison, but if you are accepted to the early-decision college, you must immediately withdraw your application from the early-action college. If you do not, when the early-action college gets the list from the early-decision college, they will in all probability send you a letter saying that your file is now inactive, since you have already been accepted. One college would never try to "steal" a student from another college in an underhanded manner."</p>
<p>There are some other issues that are not addressed in the above "A is for Admissions" blurb. The major one is that the names are also checked for RD candidates as well, since kids are pretty not very good about withdrawing their apps as should, even with no ill intent. Just laziness. I've heard that this is an issue even at the end of the admissions season, as too many kids do not inform the colleges where they are not attending of that fact. So the check is not so much to catch cheats as to avoid accepting phantom students. The yield issue is an important one for colleges, and for the most selective schools, every seat is precious.<br>
The other issue is that there is often communication among certain colleges, and not necessarily just the top ones. There are a lot of marriages, relationships in smaller cities among college administrators and a lot of the employees know each other well, many used to work with each other. So in that case, it is not wise to try to double dip things between two schools that are adjacent to each other. It's not that they so much exchange notes as that sometimes something striking is mentioned, a voila, a coincidence. I have heard some pretty funny (not to the one who got caught stories) about that, and about all sorts of whoppers, not necessarily early-admissions/decisions. They say a lie has short legs, and that can certainly be the case.
Also, at the time this was writtten, more than 10 years ago, computer systems were not as sophisticated as they are now. Everyone has a computer for work now in admissions, and many things are computerized. </p>
<p>The other issue is that sometimes things do slip by, and students are accepted to two schools, and they have reconsidered their ED school, maybe because they had undershot in selectivity for a sure thing, not believing they could get into a more selective school, and when it happens, it's begging time. These are the cases you hear about the most. That there are cases where the kids are simply not caught also occurs. But most kids do not "game" the system that thoroughly. Most capers are more simplistic and immediate. Most kids have big mouths and can't help but spread ED news. Things do come out. The number of true problems is small. The biggest issue here, are the kids' negligence in sending what they feel is not essential info to college, ie, they are NOT coming.</p>
<p>OKay, one last time....it is WRONG to apply ED and keep your options open after acceptance....and IF you have to apply RD elsewhere, the MAIN reason should be financial and you should have a good basis for that</p>
<p>A list is sent around saying this is who we accepted ED, dump them from your pile if you want</p>
<p>And if a kid is found to be trying to game the system, since there is really no other recourse, schools will notify others, BUT as you can see Harvard is also worried about the law, and what would happen if they in effect "blackballed" a student by sharing that a person, IN THEIR OPINION, did not follow ED rules in good faith</p>
<p>My point is that it is not a death of college prospects if you back out ED, unlike so many posters here claim....a student will most likely get into some other school, maybe not the top tier as is the standard discussed here, and the reasons, what proof do you need? My dad is getting laid off, what a letter from dad's boss? </p>
<p>As we can see, it is not impossible to get out of ED, you can come up with reasons, and the school can either accept them or not, but if your reason is valid enough, and say Harvard ignores you and tells other schools you are ED to them, when you tried to withdraw under "valid" reasons, and they make a stink by not accepting your reason, who is in the right?</p>
<p>I would bet you for legal reasons Harvard would back down</p>
<p>How many hoops does a kid REALLY need to go through to get out of ED? And how many times does Harvard or whomever say NO WAY JOSE??!!</p>
<p>If student D applied ED to Harvard, and realized it was a HUGE mistake, and tells Harvard, can't afford you, sorry, what proof does Harvard ask for...</p>
<p>First of all H does not have ED; it has SCEA which it will be eliminating. And H does not tend to hit you up for the commitment to them. It tells you "adios, you applied and were accepted ED to, say, Bryn Mawr", and rescinds its EA acceptance it gave you. It is up to Bryn Mawr to decide whether they want to still take you, and come up with your final aid package. Because Bryn Mawr belongs to the group of college that are linked by contract, the chances are good that it will uphold the SCEA/ED situation, unless the student makes a good appeal. So if the student though she was sitting pretty with Bryn Mawr and Harvard acceptances, she is not. Not only would she lose a prized Harvard spot, enough to get most families and kids upset, she may be without another college if she did not apply to a bunch of non selective schools as well. Sueing Harvard about this is futile along with the ED schools. Harvard will sit on its dignity about this and the ED schools have long had their decisions in matters like this upheld. I guess you'll have the time and money to sue, since you won't be going to either of those top priced schools, heh, heh, but I doubt very much you stand much of a chance. I've seen suits of more merit regarding admissions get thrown out. </p>
<p>Now if you exchange H with Princeton which does have ED, and you get into Princeton and decide to renege, that's fine with Princeton. They are not going to do a thing, other than have automatically listed you on their ED accept list. It's just that if you apply to other schools that check that ED acceptance list, you'll be dropped from consideration for RD as well unless you can argue your case. Do remember that you are arguing your case in the midst of RD application prime time, and unless you have a convincing case with your GC backing you, a selective school adcom might just drop you from consideration for Pain in the.......neck reasons. Why have to deal with someone like that? The problem is not getting out of the commitment. The problem is not getting considered after making the commitiment. As I said before, I personally knew a case where someone had a truly legitimate reason for wanting to get out of an ED contract. THe GC and student went through hoops to make sure that the local schools did not drop her app--it happens quickly and without much thought if you are showing up on an ED accept list, and reminding these schools that the ED school had released her from the commitment and that she had a difficult family medical situation that made it wise for her to stay nearby. Even then she did not get into the top local school which was comparable in selectivity to the school where she was accepted ED. </p>
<p>The ED list is not so much recourse, as it is procedure. From what my son's gc told us, it's not that long of a list and it usually has careless kids on it. They are dropped from consideration for RD and that is the end of it. </p>
<p>Now truly, if you tell Princeton you can't fulfill your ED commitment and end up going to Southeast Central U, there won't be any immediate consequence. But if you ever apply to P again, and they can pull up your record (these days with computers, it's easier and easier), it just may affect your app. It does not take much to get eliminated from consideration from these top schools.</p>
<p>Also, I'm sure all of us understand what a pain in the neck going through all of these machinations are. As though the app process alone isn't enough of a gauntlet. Who the heck wants that kind of trouble? Most of us are pretty simple. If HPY accepts, most of us will be thrilled to accept. If in bad faith, a kid applied to two early schools that are single choice, then he loses both acceptances, and he is going to have to hustle to get the rest of the apps out, and his GC is not going to be the most cooperative person in the world about this after losing face to two selective colleges. Not a good experience even if he ends up in a college he likes. What a way to spend senior year with that sick feeling in the stomache, and your GC and family upset as well, on top of being the gossip topic of the college talk crowd, cuz stuff like this comes out--the fool who lost two great EA acceptances for double dipping and is now going to a school much less prestigious. For me, the journey is important as well as the end destination. Not a "ruined" life but an unpleasant year that could have be wonderful.</p>