<p>That’s not quite the point Venkat89. Berkeley should be a top 15 school. I don’t care what metrics USNWR uses to prove otherwise. It is every bit as good overall, if not better, than the 16 schools rated above it after HYPSM.</p>
<p>^Probably not venkat, but there are posters who would say it is not as good as higher ranked counterparts if only because of the USNWR ranking.</p>
<p>Exactly my point Senior0991.</p>
<p>rjk, I’ll agree that as a university Berkeley is top 3 with Harvard and Stanford. For sciences, it’s tippy top too with MIT and Michigan. For undergrads though, there are key advantages to going to a smaller private in terms of class size, no weed out intro courses, etc. Then again, those are personal reasons. Some people would place Cal as the best university in the country if it were to rank #1 in the BCS for football because that is their criteria.</p>
<p>^I think you hit on one of the major reasons for an unpopularity of Cal. Many seem to prefer the atmosphere of a smaller private, and Berkeley gets the impression (whether fair or not, I don’t know) of being a large, cut-throat, impersonal place, moreso than other state schools of similar caliber (like UMich). I really see that as the main thing holding Cal back from gaining more popularity.</p>
<p>The main reason it’s not regarded as top I5, IMO, is that almost all its undergraduate domestic students are from California. Where I’m from (East Coast) Cal isn’t viewed as that prestigious. Heck, Vandy, Emory, Notre Dame, Gtown etc (the schools rjkofnovi might be alluding to as definitely not better than Berkeley) are seen as more prestigious. When I went to the west coast for my freshman year, I realized how prestigious people think Cal is (even though I attended Stanford lol!). To be honest, if people aren’t too connected with a school, they aren’t going to think its that prestigious. On the flipside, if people are connected with a school, they will think more highly of it. And to be honest, I really don’t think it’s an unfair criticism. How can Berkeley consider itself top 15 for undergrad when we can all name 15 other contenders for that spot on the undergrad level that draw a far more diverse class (at least geographically)? I’m not saying that I necessarily agree with the sentiment proposed in the previous question, but you cannot argue it’s a valid point. And it’s not just a state school bias thing per se. Where I’m from Michigan is regarded as highly prestigious and at least top 20 if not top 15 although most people in the academia would rate Berkeley as better (albeit slightly) than Michigan. Why is this so? Everyone knew a Michigan alumnus! On my street in the East Coast alone I knew of at least 2 Michigan alumni! Even though Michigan has to draw a certain percentage from Michigan, they do reach out and take a considerable number of OOS kids. It can be argued that where you get the students from isn’t that important as long as they are smart, and the university is in order, (and that’s true), but you cannot deny the importance of all types of diversity-including geographic. Just my two cents.</p>
<p>yeah, but it’s just a “state school” hahahahahaha</p>
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<p>[The</a> East, The West, and The Ivy League - Ideas Special Report](<a href=“http://ideas.theatlantic.com/2009/06/the_east_the_west_and_the_ivy_league.php]The”>http://ideas.theatlantic.com/2009/06/the_east_the_west_and_the_ivy_league.php)</p>
<p>Bluebayou, great story.</p>
<p>That link fits in so many threads.</p>
<p>It would have gone really well with the, “What makes HYP so special?” thread.</p>
<p>Morsmordre. Point well taken.</p>
<p>In terms of the quality of individual departments and the strength of faculty, Berkeley is as good as Harvard, Stanford, and MIT, a level above Yale and Princeton.</p>
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<p>I think the reason behind that is Berkeley has meager financial assistance for OOS students. And, since Berkeley, as a place, is expensive, it becomes less appealing to OOS students especially those who also have been accepted to prestigious private schools with attached financial assistance. </p>
<p>If Berkeley gives FA to OOS students, it can vigorously compete with the best private schools in terms of luring those deserving OOS students to matriculate. </p>
<p>In other words, enrollment yield does not solely depend on the prestige of the school but also on other factors foremost of which is the school’s financial assistance. </p>
<p>As for international students, almost all, if not all, international students who apply to Berkeley are from wealthy families of their respective countries. I believe they are aware that Berkeley, as a state university, does not provide FA to its admitted students.</p>
<p>IBClass08 – go ask the average man on a street, or even college student or professor on a street in, say, Munich… or Paris… or Delhi, what they know about Cornell or Penn or Dartmouth, or any of the elite little LACs so beloved on this forum. Chances are, they have not heard of them – whereas anyone who studies even popular culture, the 60’s, the 70’s – will have heard about Berkeley. Or read novels with Berkeley as a setting. Or watched a certain classic movie set in Berkeley. </p>
<p>Fact is, the school has lore and tradition and national & INTERNATIONAL reputation lacking by most American universities,with the exception of a very few, among them Harvard, Yale, MIT, Stanford and UCLA… the latter which has been appearing on the sweatshirts and T-shirts of European teenagers for the last 20 years.</p>
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<p>Are Vanderbilt, Emory, ND and Georgetown really viewed as more prestigious than Berkeley in the East Coast? I don’t think so. Perhaps if you’ll say more popular, I might accept that. But if you’ll say “prestigious”, I cannot accept that. </p>
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<p>Then again, you’re not talking about prestige, but popularity. </p>
<p>Let’s take the University of Cambridge as an example. I bet people would view Cambridge as prestigious, yet Cambridge’s student body is composed of 80% Brits. Of the 20% international students that have matriculated at Cambridge, only 20% were Americans. Yet, Cambridge is prestigious in the US (and throughout the world) despite the obvious lack of American representation in Cambridge. </p>
<p>Therefore, prestige does not have anything to do with alumni presence alone. Popularity, however, is. </p>
<p>In connection with that, Berkeley is less popular in the East Coast due to its limited alumni representation in the area. However, for those who have knowledge about Berkeley, it is considered a prestigious school. Again, maybe not popular, but prestigious to those who care.</p>
<p>katliamom,</p>
<p>I’m Italian, grew up in Singapore/Malaysia, educated in the UK and now living in the Philippines. In my view (and also basing on what my experiences) Berkeley is certainly a world-class academic institution or on par with Stanford, MIT, Caltech, Cambridge, Oxford and Yale.</p>
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I see you’re receiving a fabulous education on The Farm. ;)</p>
<p>And being considered such, it’d be hard to make the case that Berkeley is underrated (referring to RML… UCB got in before me).</p>
<p>Of course, of course, melody, you would say that. haha!</p>
<p>RML, it has been my experience that yes, those schools were definitely more prestigious and more popular than Berkeley. I’ve lived there virtually all my life, but of course it’s a subjective thing. I think your point about Cambridge doesn’t really apply. It’s an international school so obviously there shouldn’t be many Americans there to begin with and I would also argue that it’s due in large part to cultural reasons (Anglophilia) that Cambridge is highly respected in America. How many Americans, even highly educated ones, can name two top French universities? And it’s not because French universities aren’t prestigious in the world or don’t offer a highly rigorous education. I think it would be hard to argue that popularity/familiarity doesn’t play a significant role in prestige.</p>
<p>^ can you define to me the following:</p>
<ol>
<li>prestigious</li>
<li>popular</li>
</ol>
<p>Let me start with number 2 because it’s easier to define: many people know of the school and its alums. In an area where a school is seen as prestigious, knowing the team name of the school would be common social knowledge. Rutgers, Penn State, and Delaware are popular where I come from, but they sure as hell aren’t seen as that prestigious.</p>
<p>Prestigious means that not only do a lot of people know of it, but those that know of it hold it in high regard in respect to its academics, renown, etc. In my opinion, Amherst is not a very prestigious school because, outside of academic/elite professional circles, a lot of people don’t know about it. Granted the people who do know of it hold it in high regard, but perhaps not as high in regard as if everyone knew about it. This also gets me to my final point about prestige. A school that is of extremely high quality becomes more prestigious as it’s more well known. Like again, on the east coast, even though many people know of Stanford- not as many know of it as HYP. For that reason, it’s regarded by those who do know if it (on the east coast), as slightly less prestigious than the aforementioned schools even though you couldn’t really split hairs about it’s worth as an institution. There was a gallup poll on this that’s been floating around CC that broke down prestige according to geographical location that confirmed my suspicions. Do you get my point?</p>