Is UPenn really worth 57,000 a year?

<p>So if you have gotten much more generous aid packages else where, I would mention it to Penn with something along how your son would for sure go to Penn if you had a better aid package and then mention the Financial Aid(not merit) that you are getting from such schools.</p>

<p>Thank you all for your comments, it’s good to here different viewpoints. As of now we are still negotiating with UPenn for more financial aid. </p>

<p>Here is our college admissions story. </p>

<p>My son is one of those kids who is self motivated and driven, he has all the grades and activities the the top schools look for. My husband and I have worked hard to support and finance all of my sons interests. Going into the college process I warned my son that we could not afford private school and that I could only afford an instate tuition. Since we cannot afford a college adviser, I decided to educate myself about the college admission process. I read every book that I could get my hands on, I researched college information online. With that I was able to come up with a list of schools that would be a perfect match and also a good fit financially. He applied to 12 schools, 3 ivies, 3 target, 3 safety schools, and 3 financial safety schools we were sure he would be admitted and would receive aid.</p>

<p>Harvard- denied, but no surprise
Princeton- denied, no surprise
Vanderbilt- accepted 19,000 in aid
Carnegie Mellon- accepted 18,000 in aid
Washington university of St. Louis- accepted 18,000 in aid
Case Western Reserve- accepted 24,000
Rochester University- wait listed, surprised
U Michigan- accepted no money
U Maryland- accepted 12,000
U Pittsburgh Honors College- accepted full tuition “fantastic”
Stony Brook Honors College- accepted full tuition</p>

<p>UPenn- accepted, we were very confident that he would be admitted. Aid 2,000 that was a shock and let me explain why, on the UPenn web site and on their pamphlets they claim that " In many instances, Penn expects a lower parent contribution than the one determined by the federal formula". According to federal formula we should have received 22,000 in aid not the 2,000 that they offered. I feel that Penn is very misleading when it comes to aid and I’m in the process of having our aid reevaluated. </p>

<p>We are a middle class family with no job security, no pensions, nearing retirement and a small savings that we need to retire on. 57,000 is too much of a financial risk to take on and there is no outside scholarships out there that will make any real difference. If you ask any financial advisor they will tell you that you have to secure your retirement before you can pay for your child’s education. There are no loans for retirement.</p>

<p>The good thing is my son has lots of great choices and he will succeed no matter where he goes.</p>

<p>I think it really depends on how much your son wants it. I’m a high school student applying to colleges next year, but I am the eldest of three and we only have one working member of the family. I got the same warning; even if I get in to an Ivy, that doesn’t mean we can pay for it. My family offered to pay for my tuition up to a certain point (about $20,000) and after that I would have to pay/take loans/get scholarships or do whatever it takes to make up the difference. </p>

<p>On the other hand, if your son plans on going to graduate school, undergrad is really not as important. I know a professor who got his PhD from Harvard, and he told me that no one ever asks about undergrad; generally people look at the last school you’ve attended. If your son doesn’t intend to go to grad school, then the UPenn education is probably worth it. If he does, though, then you may be better off at one of the other colleges you listed. He can always apply to Ivy schools as a grad student, and I think financial aid is better for grads anyways. Not that the rest of those schools that are giving aid are anything to laugh at; CMU and WUSTL are both schools I would love to go to (any tips? :).</p>

<p>Penn is a good school, but it looks as if your son has a range of fabulous, and much more affordable, choices.</p>

<p>We were in your shoes last year. Interestingly, my son’s part-time job working on the Geek Squad at Best Buy had opened his eyes to the realities of earning money–even though he enjoyed the job and it pays well over minimum wage, it dawned on him that he had been plugging away 20 hours/week for nearly a year and had only managed to save a few thousand dollars. So the difference between the tuition at our state flagship, UVA, and the elite privates loomed large for him. He was–I think wisely–very averse to taking on debt. He chose to attend our state flagship, UVA, which has proven an excellent choice for him. I teach there myself–I used to teach at Princeton, and attended Cornell and Johns Hopkins for my undergraduate and graduate work. So I know from my own experience that there is virtually no difference in terms of academic rigor, or the qualifications of the student body, at any of the top schools. All the Ivies and similar schools have acceptance rates below 10% and say that they could easily fill their classes many times over with equally qualified kids. So where do those kids go? To other, very similar schools! Given the randomness of the admissions process in the best of circumstances–the schools must work with very limited information on each candidate–and the workings of financial and other contingencies, the result is that there are very, very smart students all over the place. Nor do the Ivies have a lock on the best faculty, who will go wherever they get good working conditions, support for research, etc. Social atmosphere seems to vary from school to school more widely than the academics do–but here again, I think often stereotypes come into play: I’m always seeing people on CC characterize schools in sweeping terms based on a few hours’ visit. Almost all large schools have a wide variety of people attending and therefore a variety of social options, though they might not be obvious at first glance.</p>

<p>I think Penn may have botched your FA offer. Keep negotiating. Their offer will likely end up in the range of offers you already have in hand.</p>

<p>Our decision is made, UPenn is not worth it. My son will attend University of Pittsburgh! UPitt gave him full tuition and graduating with no debt is a very satifying feeling. There seems to be a trend at our HS, most families are choosing the state schools that are offering full tuition over the Ivys that are giving no aid! The message here to the middle class is don’t apply to the Ivys on less you can afford to pay close to 60,000 a year. The aid that they claim to give is not there, you have to be poor.</p>

<p>Congrats! It seems that Pitt will have a very capable incoming freshman in the Fall!</p>

<p>What happens when all those ‘high achievers’ decide to attend state flagships,where will average joe student wind up??? They will be pushed down the chain,to schools that aren’t worth the few sheckels they charge for tuition…Pitt is a great school,no question, but it is NOT U Penn…everyome should attend a school they can afford,but there is a BIG differnce between secondary and tertiary state schools and private universities,and a smaller differnce between many flagships(not all) and privates…with states budgets in the crapper,tuitions at state schools will incerease at a faster rate then privates</p>

<p>I think the title “Is UPenn really worth 57,000 a year?” means your kid can go to other colleges without paying a dime. If my D goes to UC Berkeley then I have to pay $30,000 per year or more. Fortunately, UPenn gives my D enough grant and my UPenn EFC is comparable with FAFSA EFC. You may want to request for re-evaluation.</p>

<p>…</p>

<h2>“What happens when all those ‘high achievers’ decide to attend state flagships,where will average joe student wind up??? They will be pushed down the chain,to schools that aren’t worth the few sheckels they charge for tuition.”</h2>

<p>qdogpa, a lot of high achievers already attend state flagships. It is not everyone’s goal to attend an Ivy League university. Success in life is not directly correlated to the status of the college a person attended. University of Wisconsin-Madison ranks fourth (behind Harvard, Columbia, and Penn) in the number of Fortune 500 CEOs it has produced. There are plenty of high achievers there, and the majority of them come from regular Midwestern families and regular public schools. The average Joes are already at second- or third-tier schools.</p>

<p>I would have made the exact same decision for my child that the OP did. If this person’s son is as motivated as he seems to be, he will do well anywhere–and Pitt is certainly a reputable university that will provide him a lot of opportunities to learn and grow.</p>

<p>Schools such as Pitt generally spend lots more on honors college students than on regular students, and provide perks such as honors college activities, honors courses, summer research fellowships, focused advising (lots of these students compete for prestigious national fellowships), and honors housing. These schools do quite a bit more than throw a few merit dollars to attract attention in order to attract and retain students. The justification for doing this is to create a stronger alumni network that benefits all students, to provide an exciting path for students who have lots of unrealized potential to grow into demanding coursework among stimulating peers, to allow talented students and faculty who enjoy mentoring such students to find each other, and to create some diversity in attracting OOS students.</p>

<p>If a the student is motivated to seek out opportunities there is no reason they should receive an education vastly(if at all) inferior than that available at Penn, unless perhaps they are hoping to study with a few specific professors, work in specific labs that excite them, take some audition only or permission only courses at Penn, or study in areas in which Penn offers a far better selection of courses. This would go for any number of other schools also on OP’s list. And, the overall social atmosphere might be a far better fit for a particular student at a less academically divers student body than at the least expensive option.(But keep in mind that for the past ten years or so, score distribution among Pitt honors college students has not been much different than overall score distribution at Penn. That’s a good sized cohort of bright Pitt students we’re talking about…)</p>

<p>I also do not think that a Pitt degree would keep anyone from an elite grad school or professional school, but for a student hoping to enter the work force directly after undergrad the situation gets a little more dicey. A graduate might do better from Penn (or other elite school) in a rough market as many recruiters seem to be focused on a limited number of schools for students without significant job market hooks (URM, family connections, and such) or with a degree in an area with lots of job applicants. OTOH, saving tuition money might allow a family to spend more on summer courses and travel and worthwhile but unpaid volunteer work or internships, and it is nice not to feel the pressure to repay loans immediately upon graduation in a rough market. Money saved during undergrad might afford additional study upon graduation in a certificate program or language study abroad, as well as professional school.</p>

<p>And, of course, should a student’s GPA fall beneath a certain benchmark for reasons having nothing to do with ability to complete the work, they can fall off the radar of a school with an honors college, whereas a school with the resources to spend large amounts on all their students, once admitted, <em>might</em> be more amenable to helping such a student get back on or stay on track. (Students in a happier social environment might be less likely to fall off track in the first place.) It might also be easier to get into some grad programs with a somewhat lower GPA from a “big name” school.</p>

<p>OP, big congrats to your son on the Pitt scholarship. He’ll be part of a cadre of students who’ve made the same kind of decision.</p>

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<p>Retter, are you planning on housing and caring for your parents during their retirement? You’ll see in a few decades that having parents with adequate retirement funds is important for the kids, too.</p>

<p>OP - If your son still wants to go to Penn, and you are not determined that he go to the school with the lowest price tag (full tuition at Pitt), try calling the financial aid office at Penn. I do not think you would have much bargaining power with the Pitt scholarship, but you might do well by mentioning offers from other schools that Penn would consider peer or near-peer institutions.</p>

<p>OP - Rereading your posts and considering your particular financial situation, I would strongly encourage your son to take Pitt up on their offer. Depending upon his area of interest, he might be able to get a grant to do summer work at Penn or another elite school, and the honors college will surely have time to meet with him and help him to apply or create a resume to make him competitive for such grants. This is something the Pitt honors college does well.</p>

<p>There indeed seems to be a “Dead Zone” where families do not have enough to pay for college without seriously affecting retirement, cannot count on their child snagging a job that would pay enough to repay loans in any kind of timely manner even if they take advantage of all any college has to offer, and yet do not make enough or have too much in savings to qualify for need-based aid. Many of these families produce children who are academic superstars, and as un-PC as this sounds to some, inexpensive community college would NOT be the answer.</p>

<p>Sally, i realize that many ‘high achievers’ attend state flagships, my point was when more and more of them choose this route, average joes who in years past attended the flagships will find it more difficult to get in…they in turn will be pushed down into less desirable schools</p>

<p>I did contact UPenn and our aid reevaluated, they did offer us more aid, but the total cost over the 4 years is still over 160,000. I have no pension and no job security and my son does not want to graduate with that kind of debt. So for those who judge, shame on you don’t assume that my son is not my 1# priorty. We as parents all do our best for our kids and I am proud of my son for making a sensible dicision. </p>

<p>The problem with college is there are too many students applying, so many kids are being pushed down the chain. We all need to take a deep breath and stop over valueing these schools. This is the same thing that happens with HS, people assuming that you need to go to a private HS to be accepted to top college. This is not true, my son and all his friends from a average public HS were accepted to Ivies. Unfortunately most are making the same hard decision as my son and going to a state flagship with full tuition. I think with this economy, there are many families choosing state schools.</p>

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<p>I agree with both of you… parents should make their kids their #1 priority – by not endangering their retirement funds… which would make the parents partially dependent upon their 35-40 year old children at the worst possible time – when their child is likely still paying back loans, making progress in their career, providing for a family, saving for or paying for a home loan – a time when funds are tight, tight, tight. We must be careful that we do not place our children in a situation where they are sacrificing what they can provide for THEIR children (athletics, dance/music/art, tutoring, etc.) in order to provide for their PARENTS who overspent on their college twenty years prior by raiding their retirment savings/assets.</p>

<p>NYgella, I would have made the same choice… in a heartbeat.</p>

<p>I’m glad your son chose Pitt - my son, another high achiever, did as well! I’ve read a number of such decisions on this site - another person is choosing Pitt over JHU and Cornell because of the scholarship. I think the quality of the honors students will really surprise these incoming freshmen.</p>

<p>OP, I’m not sure that’s a great idea. I, too, have a full ride to Pitt but Tom Corbett is slashing the PA budget for higher education by, a lot.</p>

<p>Please,please research on how these cuts will affect you, your son and the tuition he pays.</p>

<p>that’s what I worry about.</p>