Michigan accepts kids for their business school based on their high school application. If you don’t get into Ross as a high school senior, you can’t get in, unless you don’t apply as a business major…and then they only accept a handful.
I have not been involved in recruiting graduating college seniors for a few years, but I believe most colleges have a similar format, where a lot of the general education requirements are covered in the first three semesters and then students start to transition into degree coursework.
I am not sure how a school does an accounting degree in just two years because some of the coursework must be taken sequentially. Every other degree can probably be done in two years, although I think it is a better educational experience for the students if they are not overloaded on the core degree coursework within the same semester. It should be spread out a bit.
My issue with UVa and other schools is accepting students into a degree program that they have no intention of seeing the student through to the end. 20% is a reasonable attrition rate in a demanding major. 40-50% is not.
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Most estimates suggest 50-80% of college students switch majors. Thankfully and appropriately students aren’t forced to complete majors they indicate an interest in before matriculating. With this in mind UVAs approach for some students seems to appropriately give students a solid academic foundation and experience basis from which to determine what major to pursue.
While not all students will be entirely satisfied with the eventual options they are offered they enter into the process fully informed of the state of play. Given its popularity this approach works for and is appealing too a significant number of students.
Obviously if it doesn’t work for a particular student they need not apply or participate but this approach seems fair and popular ironically by virtue of its high attrition rate.
It is true that all schools have gen ed requirements, but business schools have some leeway.
For example we attended a information session at Purdue-Krannert. The accounting professors there were of the opinion that the entire calculus sequence at purdue was not needed for accounting students. They were lobbying the school to just keep Calc1 and replace the upper calculus courses with accounting related courses.
What program at UVA are you referring to " accepting students into a degree program that they have no intention of seeing the student through to the end. 20% is a reasonable attrition rate in a demanding major. 40-50% is not accepting students into and they have no intention of matriculating?"
For the folks that get into Commerce after applying - they have a pretty high graduation rate because students who apply second year generally know what they want to do versus having to commit in high school? I actually don’t follow your issue with UVA outside their is a risk a student who goes to UVA, may not get into McIntire in their second year. UVA has a lot of paths where you can major outside of Commerce School but take lots of coursework in the school and get appropriate minors.
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Maybe we should rethink this based on this ranking…
It’s hard for me to understand how folks can take the side of the institution in this case. The only reason the university exists is to serve the needs of the students. I fail to see how this practice serves the needs of the students at all.
I don’t live in Virginia, but my own state university engages in the same practice and I have the same complaint. The defense that the university clearly states there policy is no defense. They are dealing with teenagers, most of them below the age of majority when they agree to enroll. The responsibility for ensuring that the students understand this ooorly conceived practice rests with the institution.
The only word that I can think to describe this is “bait and switch”. The whole policy is terribly misleading. I know too many students who thought that they would be able to major in something because the university offers it, only to find out too late that they have been shut out. There’s too much at stake both in money invested and in students’ lives to simply shrug and say, “Oh, well . . . they should have known.”
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“I don’t live in Virginia.” I do. There are lots of great public options here. If there is major concern about guaranteed access to business/commerce at UVA and not getting into McIntire is a dealbreaker, there are other options for instate kids, including instate, OOS, or private. And OOS applicants have many options as well.
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I personally don’t like the non-direct admit model. I would steer my kids to direct admit.
That said, it’s a school’s right to run their own path and the student’s right to choose.
So if everyone is dealing with transparency, it’s hard to fault either side.
But the student has to know the risk up front and realize the risk they took had consequences if they miss their goal.
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Agree. I think part of the problem is it is hard to wrap your head around a competitive program that would accept people every year whose GPA is below a B. The fact of the matter is it is a crapshoot with little predictably. If you go in as a white male, and try to enter a program whose guiding principle is a highly diverse class then the cards are stacked against you and you need to know that. Unfortunately, I don’t believe this gets the attention it deserves from high school students until they know an outstanding student and person who has been rejected.
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I agree. It’s one of the (many) consequences of inadequate college counseling in many HSs.
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I totally agree with this response. Each student needs to make their own decision as the rules of the game are clearly outlined. Some may want an experience at UVA and risk the decision and/or want a two year liberal arts option first. If they want certainty - elsewhere may be the better choice.
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B.S. in Commerce Admissions Statistics – Experience McIntire (virginia.edu)
Last 5 years the admission rate to Mcintire has been between 59-66% admitted.
Yes, thx, Dean J also posted the admission stats in post #14, above.
Students we know who did not get into McIntire majored in Econ and math and would not have given up on their UVA experience for guaranteed admission to a business school like Virginia Tech. They both got great jobs out of UVA.
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This is very helpful. I did not know how good UVA is for finance.
However, UVA is very good for CS. There are quite a bit more than 32 universities in the US that are very good for a career in CS. I have worked with UVA graduates who were excellent. “Prestige” is also not particularly important in computer science, particularly since there are so many jobs in the field. I would not be concerned about the strength of UVA for either major.
Which to me comes to the conclusion that UVA would be very good to set you up for either potential career.
There is also the obvious issue that between finance and CS, you should choose whichever major corresponds to what you want to do for your career.
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This agrees with what I have heard. Both of my daughters were included in the “switch majors” group, and are currently doing well in the field that they chose to follow.
Personally I would not be concerned about the “weed out” factor in terms of needing to apply to get into finance. To some extent there is going to be some form of weed out for any demanding career. The sooner someone figures out that their intended career is not for them, the sooner they can look for a different option that is right for them.
As an analogy: One daughter started off freshman year taking biology for biology majors. The class was full of students who were thinking “premed”. The class average on the first midterm was in the mid 40’s in a class full of very strong students. I took this as the university doing the students a favor: Quite a few students figured out quickly that they either needed to up their effort significantly or think about alternate careers. This is easier to do if you start sooner.
Personally I started off unsure between math and physics as a major. Quantum physics made the choice for me. I suppose it was my weed out class (I did well enough in the class, but I hated it). I ended up being quite happy (and eventually successful) as a math major.
I think that life is full of weed out events. It is also full of people who figure out the right way forward for them.
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Just to be clear, the “weedout” at some non-direct admit business schools is not completely in the student’s control, because admission is holistic. Sure grades are a very important factor, but there are students with high GPAs who could have been finance majors at many schools, with a bright future/strong job prospects, yet aren’t accepted to McIntyre (or substitute other non-direct biz admit schools like Wake Forest) for reasons outside their control.
I’m not saying one way is better than another, but understanding how the secondary admission process works (holistic? Solely stats based?), or how competitive business club entry is (and how important membership is or is not to the secondary admissions process), and other relevant factors, is something HS seniors should research and know before applying to a non-direct admit school.
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Grads from Virginia Tech’s business school also do well. McIntire is higher ranked than VT’s Pamplin though, and UVA is considered more “prestigious” than VT , if that is a concern. And of, course, atmosphere and fit will be different at the schools.
But, just noting that VT is well recruited, with good outcomes. There is actually lots of overlap in the biggest employers of Pamplin grads and UVA economics grads. Lots of VT grads going to Deloitte, EY, Capital One, IBM, KPMG, Grant Thornton,PricewaterhouseCoopers, CGI, Amazon, etc.
Virginia Tech is not for everyone, but it is a viable alternative for an instate student , in particular, that wants direct admission to a business school. Or just prefers Virginia Tech. Of course, admission to UVA is in general , harder than VT. But, admission to VT engineering seems to be getting tougher all the time.
https://fds.career.vt.edu/EmployerList?cohort=2020-2021&college=Pamplin%20College%20of%20Business
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Nothing against Virginia Tech, I just know that the two students we know who didn’t get in McIntire said they would not have given up their UVA experience for direct admission into business school at Tech.