<p>I never condoned what Hezbollah did. It is wrong to cross into another country's border with violent intent...PERIOD. Hezbollah acted rashly and violently and that cannot be excused. But to say that Hezbollah are terrorists is also wrong. They are fighting for their land...land that as occupied without provocation. Lebanon did not threaten Israel since it was founded in 1948. Invading Lebanon and occupying the South since 1982 is wrong. Flying its war planes over Lebanese soil every day for the last 25 years is wrong. Holding countless Lebanese prisoners without any formal charges or fairl trial is wrong. Hezbollah has committed many contemptable acts...so has Israel. Destroying an entire country and killing 1,000 innocent civilians, many of which are babies and women is not an answer to the problem.</p>
<p>I agree with Alexandre, and would like to add the Hezbollah created itself to defend its people from Israel, so Israel was the first agressor. Apparently Mozillameistere, you're the one with the bad memory. In addition, yes Hezbollah has done wrong, but Israel has thousands of Lebanese and Palestinians detained on the basis that they are "suspected" militants. Like you stated that Israel gets mad like any sane country, like any sane people, Palestinians and Lebanese get mad too, and so they fight. You also have to remember that Hezbollah draws many of its members from Palestinians who live in refugee camps there who want there land back from the Israeli's, and I doubt that they will ever stop being aggressive until they get it back.</p>
<p>guguru, do you have anyh palestinian or lebanese relatives? you seem to hate Israel with a passion.</p>
<p>Tryin2Bcool, I'm not arab and I have no connections with any arabs. I think Israel wrongly came about to exist. I do think that its terrible what happened to them, but they way that Israel was created was wrong. I don't hate it with a passion, I just think that some of the people here don't really know why these people are doing what they're doing and are just rambling on with no background knowledge. And why target me specifically trying2Bcool? There have been some other posters on this threat who have flamed on Israel. My arguments are at least substantial.</p>
<p>In addition, I think that now the best thing would be for peace would be if Palestinians get their own state, but I don't think Israel should just dismantle itself, whcih is something that many others want and insist on.</p>
<p>Whatever. I'm sick of arguing with you. Lebanon wasn't being fought until Hezbollah came in. You say Israel attacked Lebanon first? Well, since Hezbollah attacked Israel by killing 8 soldiers and kidnapping 2, Hezbollah started. What was Israel to do? Sit back and eat Cracker Jacks? Attacking Hezbollah=attacking Lebanon since Lebanse didn't want to do ANYTHInG about the situation. </p>
<p>Granted, Israel DID start a war with the Palestinians a couple weeks before the conflict, but that doesn't make Hezbollah's actions any better because of it. That makes them indiffrent. The 2 are unrelated....you keep saying 'Palestinian prisoners'....but what does that have to do with what's happening now? How does that justify Hezbollah's actions? They caused Lebanon all this pain it's suffering now, since if they didn't start this, Beruit wouldn't be in the shape it's in now, Israel's nothern cities wouldn't be in the shape it's in now. No matter what you say can't change the above. It's all over the place. </p>
<p>If Hezbollah REALLY cared about it's people, they would be focused on doing constructive things for Lebanon, like open more schools, help the needs, Greenpeace or something. No. What they are interested in is hellbent destruction. They are upset that they lossed to Israel those years ago? Aww...Too bad. Deal with it. </p>
<p>I'm out. If this whole little argument against me to score cookie points or something, or are trying to unlock an achievemennt for 'arguing wit this guy on college forum' worth 1000 points, well you've won. I've shared all my points, and you've shared yours. You won't change me, and I won't change you. </p>
<p>If you really think Hezbollah is all roses cool. It's your opinion. You're entitled to it. You know mine. I'm no mindless drone who will believe that X country is always right and that's final (look at above posts) Israel is wrong on certain aspects. Israel was WAY wrong on the little war on Gaza a month ago that everyone seems to forget about (the beach bombing, for example), but on this, Hezbollah is wrong. They started this, they are continuing this, and they'll end it by droping their arms. </p>
<p>I can see you are both those people who believe 'Israel doesn't have the right to exist' (at least Alexandre admited it) (guguru's statement '...land back from the Israeli's')because of something over 60 years ago (which is mucho retardo) So fight the power. I really don't care what you think if you think that.</p>
<p>And to guguru, one last statement: If Hamas was to get Israel completly like you wish, they would kill MANY innocents. Lets put it this way: Unlike Abbas, they are no friend of 'Jews', not just 'Israellies'.</p>
<p>I said Israel doesn't have a right to exist? Where did I say that? Can you please point to the post where I said that Israel doesn't have the right to exist? I believe Israel has every right to exist. All I said is that Israel's actions in Lebanon have created Hezbollah and that until Israel corrects the wrongs, Hezbollah is going to fight.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Last time I checked, it was Israel who invaded Lebanon without provocation and it has not left Lebanon since....and I am referring to the 1982 invation. Hezbollah's military wing was created after the invation of Southern Lebanon in '82 and not before. So Hezbollah is purely a freedom fighting group that wants its lands back.
[/quote]
Israel has been out of Lebanon since 2000. It wanted to have nothing to do with Lebanon. Hezbollah crossed into Irsael territory killed several soldiers and kidnapped two soliders. Hezbolla engaged in an act of war. Hezbolla does not get to choose how Israel responds once Hezbolla engages in an act of war. If Lebanon did not want to place its citizens in a war zone, it should not have permitted Hezbolla to exist in its country and permit Hezbolla to initiate war against a soverign nation.</p>
<p>Razorsharp, I personally agree that Israel has pulled out of Lebanon. But some lebanese, mostly in the South, believe that Shebaa Farms belongs to Lebanon and that is still occupied by Israel. I personally thik that Syria and pro-Syrian Lebanese conspired together to cause trouble in this regard. But this is just one of the reasons Hezbollah acted so rashly. There are other reasons, such as Israel flying their war planes over Lebanon on a daily basis since 1982. It is illegal for a country to fly their war planes over another soveriagn country without permission. Furthermore, Israel is still holding many Lebanese POWs.</p>
<p>
[quote]
It is illegal for a country to fly their war planes over another soveriagn country without permission.
[/quote]
You are right.
[quote]
Furthermore, Israel is still holding many Lebanese POWs.
[/quote]
Then Lebanon, not Hezbolla, should take the necessary actions under the Geneva Convention and other international laws to have their POWs returned. None of the actions of Israel justify a violent response by Hezbolla. Hezbolla is not a soverign state.</p>
<p>The bottom line is that if Hezbolla and Hammas would stop all offensive actions against Israel, there would be peace. Israel is rarely the aggressor. It merely responds to acts of violence against its civilians.</p>
<p>Israel did invade and occupy Lebanon for 18 years without provocation. Lebanon had not attacked Israel. Hezbollah today is a result of those 20 years of occupation. You can be sure that at this point, Israel has created a monster. Lebanon cannot control Hezbollah as it is more powerful than Lebanon's offical army. And Lebanon and Israel cannot negotiate because they do not speak to each other. Israel must acknowledge that Hezbollah is a creation of its own occupation and it must stop treating them like terrorists and negotiate with them instead. </p>
<p>But again, none of that justifies what Israel has done to Lebanon, both in 1982 and today. My father, who lives in Beirut, told me that the destruction Israel and the US have inflicted on my tiny country will take decades to fix, given Lebanon's limited resources. Luckily, the Lebanese are used to this sort of situation, but it doesn't make it any easier to accept.</p>
<p>As you see, I never discuss Hamas because I know very little about the Palestinian cause. I can tell you that Israel and the Arabs have to both make serious concesions if there is to be peace. Unfortunately, neither side seems to be willing to accept those sacrifices and it is the every day civilian who suffers.</p>
<p>What kind of world do we live in where a country that defends itself against terrorism is critized by many many people?</p>
<p>So you say Lebanon is a terrorist country? Because Israel and the US (which was never attacked by Lebanon) are destroying Lebanon. </p>
<p>Besides, most of the free-thinking world saw with horror when Israel invaded Lebanon without provication in 1982 as they proceeded to occupy the land for 18 years. They understand that Hezbollah is not a terrorist organiation but rather a freedom fighting group.</p>
<p>You're saying hezbollah arent terrorists?!?! You're an idiot. Yes, I am saying lebanon is a terrorist country. Recently, the lebonese president said that he supports hezbollah and that he is glad they are in his country. Explain that.</p>
<p>I am Lebanese. Thanks for the name calling. Maybe if you moved in with my parents for a couple of days, you would change your mind. 5 missiles were lancued into a parking lot not 200 yards from our home last week. You don't see me calling Israel a terrorist nation do you? And here you are, insulting a country without knowing the history of the conflict or its people. Unless you are willing to have a civil conversation with me, don't expect me to converse with you.</p>
<p>To the average Lebanese citizen. They see the news reports saying 30 children were killed in a recent Israeli attack.</p>
<p>Do they think </p>
<p>a) This is Hezbollah's fault!
b) Israeli dogs!</p>
<p>The answer 9 times out of 10 is b. </p>
<p>To people saying that Hezbollah is using civilians as human shields. Do you people even realize how big Lebenon is? It's a very small country, about 10,000 square KM with a very dense population, 350 or so people per square KM. That means whereever Hezbollah is, there's likely to be civilians. We're not talking about Mother Russia here folks.</p>
<p>Finally, Hezbollah's support base is concentrated mainly in Southern Lebanon which is largely made up of Shi'a Muslims. Why would Israel attack Beirut (very much a mixed city) to break the back of Hezbollah then?</p>
<p>"To people saying that Hezbollah is using civilians as human shields. Do you people even realize how big Lebenon is? It's a very small country, about 10,000 square KM with a very dense population, 350 or so people per square KM. That means whereever Hezbollah is, there's likely to be civilians. We're not talking about Mother Russia here folks."</p>
<p>ya, maybe thats true, but heres an article about that specific attack:
Israel Has Evidence of Rockets Coming Behind Building: A Sorry Argument
In an effort to defend its perpetrated massacre of children sleeping in the middle of night in a refuge in Qana, the Israeli government has put out a video tape on its website that shows rocket fire coming supposedly from behind a building. Everybody should see this video because it makes no point and does not support their argument one bit. First of all, the buildings they show in the images are in Southern Lebanon and they do not specify its location any further. So how do they relate to Qana? Because there was rocket fire appearingly coming from behind a building, now a person has the right to blow up every building in its sight. Secondly, if they have images of this particular building, why don't they show pictures of the rockets coming from behind the Qana building? Thirdly, from the video only, one cannot claim that the rocket fire is coming exactly from behind the building. For all we know, the rockets might be getting shot 2, 3, or 5 miles from behind the building and their just coming over the building as they make their way to their destination. In my mind, there is already plenty of evidence to make me believe that they are intentionally targeting civilians before even seeing this video. Seeing this video only reaffirms this belief.</p>
<p>also, hizbullah doesnt attack at night, because Israel would be able to pinpoint their location, they attack in the morning, so why did Israel attack this building at night?</p>
<p>And why were there absolutely NO hizbullah fighters found at the site?? wounded or dead?</p>
<p>"Why would Israel attack Beirut (very much a mixed city) to break the back of Hezbollah then?"</p>
<p>ya why would they?</p>
<p>
[quote]
I am Lebanese. Thanks for the name calling. Maybe if you moved in with my parents for a couple of days, you would change your mind. 5 missiles were lancued into a parking lot not 200 yards from our home last week. You don't see me calling Israel a terrorist nation do you? And here you are, insulting a country without knowing the history of the conflict or its people. Unless you are willing to have a civil conversation with me, don't expect me to converse with you.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Change my mind on what? What do u want Israel to do? Just sit back and not retaliate while their citizens are being killed in suicide bombings? This is so double-standard, whenever u see a terrorist bombing in Israel, you hear about it for one day, and it seems like the responce is: "Oh well". But when Israel retaliates, defending themselves, all u hear is: "OMG ***, THEY'RE KILLING PEOPLE!!!! EVIL!!!". I mean come on, what do u expect them to do?</p>
<p>I did not ask you to change your mind. I asked you not to call me names or to label people terrorists. </p>
<p>Anyway, I am done with contributing to this thread. I was reminded by a wise poster that as moderator, I must not add fuel to the fire. I will ask you all to try your level best to learn from each other rather than to bash each other. In the end, remember that you all want to see peace.</p>