<p>For what it’s worth, I live in a state where not many people apply to Harvard, but the only people I know that are discussing potentially going to Harvard/Yale etc. are pretty well qualified. I know people applying on a whim that I don’t think have a chance, but nobody I know who is really actively considering Harvard seems like some “I’m an eighth grader and I want to go to Harvard” kind of person. In fact, I have never met that kind of person in real life, ever.</p>
<p>I think parents need to take a large amount of responsibility for helping their teens see the larger picture. My child attends a highly competitive public high school where the top students all aim for “the Ivies” with significant parental pressure. My husband and I both hold doctorates, have studied at and taught at a large variety of these institutions and have some pretty clear opinions which coincide with snarlatron’s thoughtful insights. It took hours of discussion on our parts as well as countless college visits to a variety of colleges before our DD was completely able to step back from the peer pressure and choose to apply to the colleges that truly suited her personally. She still has to defend her application choices to her fellow students and their parents even though it is clear to us that she made some very thoughtful decisions. One tip is that we never commented on a school after a tour until our child had written down her impressions and thoughts in a notebook. Thus, she learned early on that it is about HER fit to the college, not ours or her peers.</p>
<p>“Having Harvard as a “dream school” is unoriginal and unrealistic.”</p>
<p>I’d suggest that having a dream school *at all<a href=“i.e.%20-%20choosing%20a%20school%20based%20on%20brand,%20without%20regard%20to%20one’s%20own%20qualifications%20or%20the%20school’s%20suitability%20to%20one’s%20desired%20academic%20path”>/i</a> is a waste.</p>
<p>“a plan that shows little relation to much research or reality.”</p>
<p>Yeah, but that’s got nothing to do with being “unoriginal.” I had no problem with the OP’s statement that Harvard is an unrealistic dream for most students. It is. Being realistic is a virtue, because it will lead you to make smart strategic decisions. Being “original,” as far as I can tell, offers no benefit except perhaps an unjustified ego boost.</p>
<p>Being original (thinking outside convention) certainly is a virtue. Ironically, If an applicant is just fixated on the ten more-or-less ‘name brand’ schools, they may not have the quality of originality which those very same ‘name brand’ schools seek. Of course, the schools don’t know where else an applicant applies, but their ‘unoriginal’ thought may likely surface elsewhere in their application. I do think a diligent and bright applicant should be able to find several unique, well-suited, exceptional undergrad programs that bypass the application traffic jam.</p>
<p>Funny thread! Groucho Marx said that he wouldn’t join a club that would accept him, maybe Harvard wont admit anyone with a crush on Harvard!</p>
<p>^^Or was that Woody Allen? </p>
<p>Also appropriate, Yogi Berra said “Nobody goes there anymore. It’s too crowded.”</p>
<p>@katkatmouse I just had to comment because of your profile picture! I’m literally listening to the Incredibles soundtrack right now! I love it so much. 
You’re Vi, then?</p>
<p>
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<p>so true! No one who ever got accepted into Harvard viewed it as their “dream school”. They just viewed it as an emergency backup in case they can’t get into their local community college. They just settled for Harvard.</p>
<p>@kitkat522 I am Vi Paar’s alter ego after college & a little grad school! 
</p>
<p>@katkatmouse Soo a little shy but now confident in your abilities?</p>
<p>I don’t think having a goal and pursuing it to the full extent is a bad thing, at all.</p>
<p>Thank you for sharing your insight, @snarlatron. Your perspective is a very unique one on this board.</p>
<p>I agree with the OP. Moreover, there are also tons of international students overestimating their chances. But I believe it’s rather a harsh statement and I think the admissions ARE individual. After all, don’t these schools look for uniqueness? </p>
<p>I have around 250 people on Facebook. Some of them see education just as a necessity, while others love it. Those who love it - some of them are just genuinely interested in learning and don’t care all that much about some stupid name (I know a girl who turned down Oxford), while others do. I am part of the second group, and for me, studying on a renowned university would be an achievement. Something I could be proud of. </p>
<p>And there are kids like me, even here on CC and even kids who made it (AnnaTheGreat or something like that). Kids who may come from harsh conditions, different religions, environment, whatever. But the point is that they are ambitious and seek to thrive. They dedicate their whole time to work on themselves and want to accomplish something. Is it really all that wrong that some of them have ambitions to reach the top and are not afraid to talk about it? I for example don’t technically have parents, so where else should I get some pat on the back other than from my friends?</p>
<p>Imagine you’re a swimmer. You begin at early age, train really hard, do everything you can. Would your ultimate goal be to win a local competition? No. You wanna go big - Olympics maybe. In my humble opinion, the same applies here. </p>
<p>I guess I know what kind of people OP means. I briefly know a guy from my country who graduated from H last year and he was exactly the type of guy who just loved school, did some nice unique extracurricular, et cetera. But he is from a family where it was somehow “common”. I think it was somehow natural to him to apply to top schools and well, get accepted. Obviously he doesn’t take it for granted to study there, it’s just that the environment he had was different. </p>
<p>I also know a guy who won 2 gold and 1 silver medal from IMO. He didn’t even apply to foreign universities, but schools like Cambridge or Imperial would accept him in matter of seconds. On the other hand, he wouldn’t stand a chance on top schools in the US, because outside of math, he is kind of boring. But again, he has this personality: “I want to study, but I don’t really care where”.</p>
<p>The point I am trying to make (I am terrible at essays and this sort of stuff) is that there are many different people out there and you can’t judge them all with one sentence. It’s just wrong. </p>
<p>Obviously, on the other hand, Ivy League school isn’t the only goal there exist and the world doesn’t end behind its walls. But it’s a decent goal to start with and a reasonable one. Many (just kidding, most) will fail, but as Batman’s father puts it: “Why do we fall? So we can learn to pick ourselves up”.</p>
<p>My 2 (euro) cents. </p>
<p>
As only six universities in the US give need-blind aid to international students, many internationals focus their college search on the schools that supply that aid, four of whom are ivies. For them, the world does end behind those ivied walls.</p>
<p>While that’s true, it’s also a bit misleading. Yes, there is a very limited number of colleges that both admit international students on a need-blind basis and promise to meet 100% of demonstrated need. But there are dozens of additional colleges that promise to meet 100% of demonstrated need of international students they accept, while taking need into account in evaluating applications. And a number of others that make merit scholarships available for international students they really want to attract. </p>
<p>Obviously, international applicants with significant need face a high hurdle at those colleges, but it isn’t necessarily any higher than the hurdle they face applying to Harvard, Yale, or MIT. I don’t really know the facts, but I strongly suspect that the sort of student who really is a serious candidate for HYPSM would have a very good chance of getting the necessary funding at a wide range of other institutions. They may have to step down in category a little, just like U.S. students who can’t actually pay what colleges think they ought to. They may wind up at an excellent institution that is less well-known than Harvard in their home country. But if the “world does end behind those ivied walls” for a really talented student, it’s due primarily to a failure of imagination on the student’s part.</p>
<p>^^ I disagree. Many colleges these days are balancing their financial aid budget by admitting international students who can pay full-fare. See: <a href=“International Students Pay Top Dollar at U.S. Colleges - The New York Times”>International Students Pay Top Dollar at U.S. Colleges - The New York Times. That’s the new reality, which is why many international students are drawn to applying to the six colleges that do admit internationals on need-blind basis and agree to meet 100% of that need.</p>
<p>The two aren’t mutually inconsistent. Yes, many colleges are admitting international AND domestic students who can pay full fare. And there are many more international students now who can afford full fare than there were 10 or 20 years ago; the non-European world is much, much richer than it has been for centuries. But there are lots of high-quality U.S. colleges that want top-flight international students, and are willing to finance some of those who can’t pay. Carleton, for example, has six full-ride scholarships for international students. Wesleyan has separately endowed scholarships for Asian nationals. Stanford, for heaven’s sake, is not need-blind for international applicants, but certainly does not admit only the rich ones. And the same is true of Penn, Columbia, Cornell, Hopkins, Northwestern, Chicago, Vanderbilt, USC, Michigan, Berkeley, UCLA . . . .</p>
<p>In all likelihood, one of the biggest issues now is that the “international” pots of aid are also being used for undocumented “DREAMer” students who are otherwise indistinguishable from other U.S. students. That’s a significant source of competition for poor students from Asia or Latin America.</p>
<p>Of course, international students with need are “drawn” toward the six colleges. They should be. But if they are not applying elsewhere, too, they are making a big mistake.</p>
<p>The world isn’t either/or, gibby. Again, without knowing the actual facts, I am confident that the number of full-need international students being educated at the rest of the top 50 national universities and top 30 LACs is far, far greater than the number enrolled at the six institutions that accept them on a need-blind basis and meet full need. (Just as I am also certain that your six colleges, one way or another, wind up with a sizable cohort of full-pay international students, too. “Need-blind” is sort of a term of art; there’s nowhere where it means that there isn’t a financial aid budget that has to be adhered to.)</p>
<p>I guess you’re right. Thank you
This might help a lot of students who get rejected by Harvard. Nice work.</p>
<p>So today is Ivy Day and I am reminded of Willy Wonka. No doubt Veruca, Violet, Augustus and Mike will be admitted. My prayers are for the Charlie Buckets who have savored their education and only privately dared to dream that they too might receive a golden ticket to the wonder and opportunity afforded by a visit to the Chocolate Factory. </p>