<p>surfette's right. I just read someplace (or was it on this thread, maybe?) that military recruiters were caught on camera lying to the prospective recruits - they were glossing over the ugliness in Iraq and telling them that no one was being sent to Iraq anymore. LIES!</p>
<p>Yay, we finally agree on something :)</p>
<p>My older sister actually left college to go to iraq. Of course, 9/11 had a big thing to do with it, considering the main event went down about 3 miles from where we lived.</p>
<p>She wasnt brainwashed into joining. She joined because she was mad about what happened and wanted to do something about it.</p>
<p>Well, my sister came back from Iraq and she def isnt changed or scarred. I dont know if they meant scarred or scared....Anyway, shes not scarred or scared. She doesnt tell me about the stuff she saw, but who wants to talk about seeing dead or mutilated people anyway? My sister is still the same and shes happy. Shes finishing up her degree at Columbia and she plans on going to Upenn for her masters.</p>
<p>So there you have it. A person who went to Iraq who is not only smart, but isnt brainwashed and supports bush and is going to an ivy league.</p>
<p>Take it from a kid who is sorta in a miltary family now. Not everyone is brainwashed into joining the military and not all of them join as a "way out"</p>
<p>And I take offense to your comments, smurfette. It seems that you are trying to disuade EVERYONE from joining the military because of the adverse effects that may take place. Maybe nobody should join. Lets just start up the draft again. Being in the military isnt a completely negative experience. It has a different effect on everyone. You should know that.</p>
<p>No, I'm trying to discourage ALMOST everyone from joining. 98% perhaps. For some it is a means of survival, which I can understand. How long did your sister serve?</p>
<p>And maybe instead of the draft, we could try ending the war. So we wouldn't need so many soldiers. </p>
<p>Oh, and let me guess. You're white, upper-middle class?</p>
<p>She still has to go to weekend things, but shes almost out and shes finally finishing her undergrad! She signed up in late 2001. </p>
<p>Yeah, most should be discouraged from joining, ill admit that. I hate when the army gets impoverished kids in by promising stuff. I always argue with her about that. So true</p>
<p>Am I upper middle class? hmmm maybeee! Ok fine I am haha. We are well off</p>
<p>
[quote]
Willingly? How naive are you? Many do it as a means of survival. A way out. A lot are brainwashed into thinking that by entering the military they will receive an education, respect, and dignity. But they don't. Look up the statistics. Have you ever met someone who was in the military? Have you seen what it does to them? These boys come backed changed and scarred. I have a friend who was voted "Mr. Aloha", which basically means he was the nicest and most outgoing kid in his class. But now, after serving a year in the marines, he is completely different. He is very subdued and rarely speaks with anyone. I miss my friend, but have a feeling that he will never be back.
[/quote]
<sighs> The military does change people. But for the better. Do you know your friend's entire circumstances? From what it seems, only the fact he went to basic and came back changed. True, basic changes you.They break you down and put you back together piece by piece. But that's the entire point. They can't just teach you and hope you remember. They have to make it your nature. Surfette, maybe your friend just wasn't prepared. I know many, many young men and women who know what they are getting into and are better for it.
[quote]
surfette's right. I just read someplace (or was it on this thread, maybe?) that military recruiters were caught on camera lying to the prospective recruits - they were glossing over the ugliness in Iraq and telling them that no one was being sent to Iraq anymore. LIES!
[/quote]
<sighs double=""> Lies? Seriously? An isolated case, at best. The media is eager to jump on anything wrong in the military. Have you ever talked to an army recruiter in person? From your other posts, I seriously doubt it. Most, if not >99%, of military recruiters are very honest with those considering signing up. As for what they said, about no one being sent to Iraq, they most likely meant the unit the person would most likely be put in. The entire army is not stationed in Iraq, only certain divisions. </sighs></sighs></p>
<p>Before people start a flame war with me, realize that I know what I'm talking about. My father was in the military for 20+ years. He had many ToDs and spent more than a year in Iraq. I still live next to an army base, and am not oblivious to what is happening in the Middle East.</p>
<p>Who am I kidding? There is no way I can win on this thread.</p>
<p>"Have you ever talked to an army recruiter in person? "</p>
<p>In all fairness, no I have not.</p>
<p>Hey, we don't disagree as much as it appears. Currently, people do join the military voluntarily. I have heard of coercion in high schools and it does seem that the less privileged students (those who cannot afford college) tend to find it more appealing. But, still, it IS their choice.</p>
<p>You are right. I have not spoken to a recruiter firsthand, and I don't have any experience with being in the military, so everything I am saying is hearsay. So, I am backing out of this conversation since I am not qualified to participate.</p>
<p>In parting, I offer this question: Snoopy, could it be that the military changes people for the better, but war changes them for the worse?</p>
<p>I'm sorry if I sound very harsh. I really only meant to point out the flaws in your argument, not to insult you.</p>
<p>And yes, less privileged students do look at the military. But if you really want to go to college, the military will pay for it as long as after graduation you serve for the mandatory 8 years.</p>
<p>No prob. I do know people for whom the military has been very beneficial. I have a brother who was a colonel or something high up there like that. I also know a guy at work who is totally into it and his wife is too. The military is their whole life. otoh, I also know someone who got really emotionally messed up after being in Vietnam, and another guy who just got back from Iraq and is really messed up. So it works both ways. And, I do think it is worth making a distinction between 'joining the military' and 'fighting in a war.'</p>
<p>I have no problem with a volunteer military, as long as the facts are laid out and there is no deception. I do have a problem with starting wars under false pretenses. Many of the people who joined the military did so in good faith and were willing to fight for a just cause, but not for a pointless war like Iraq.</p>
<p>Touche. However, I do disagree with you on your points about the war in Iraq, but those are my beliefs. I am not going attempt to change yours, for the moment.</p>
<p>Hey, that's cool. It's ok to disagree! At least we can be respectful about it. Thanks for being respectful - that is more than can be said about many on this forum, even some of the parents!</p>
<p>edit: Oh, I didn't think you sounded harsh at all. You have experience with the military so are entitled to your strong opinion. I respect that!</p>
<p>Much props to you, lealdragon. Our part of this discussion at least hasn't resorted to calling each other beepity beeps. :D</p>
<p>To all: it is great to see this discussion, because in most of the world, free and open discourse is not tolerated. There would be someone knocking on all of our doors....</p>
<p>However, we choose to live with our form of government, nobody rams it down our throats. Remember, "democracy is the worst form of government, but it is the best there is". I did not write that, I paraphrased it from somewhere else. </p>
<p>I say that we should get out asap, and let each to their own, unless, they ASK US for our help and support. Our people should not be sacrificing there bodies, minds and lives in places where they are not wanted. </p>
<p>Let's put our resources in places like Darfur....</p>
<p>Why can't we just learn from our own history? I hope my S, who will be a Freshman at TOSU next year gets as passionate about the Iraqi mess as you all are.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Willingly? How naive are you? Many do it as a means of survival. A way out. A lot are brainwashed into thinking that by entering the military they will receive an education, respect, and dignity.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That argument is irrelevant. I stated that all that enlist in the military do so willingly. </p>
<p>
[quote]
Willingly: disposed or consenting
[/quote]
</p>
<p>As long as there is not a draft forcing peope to enlist, every person that does so makes that decision. Whether or not it serves as a "means of survivial" is not the question, and even so, I would argue against that claim. ANYONE that can get a job with the military can get a civilian job. I am well aware of plenty of people that COULD have gotten regular jobs and saved up to attend a community college, but instead opted to join the military as the benefits were much greater. That's the deal: if you want the better benefits, you must serve. If you don't want to serve, make your own path.</p>
<p>
[quote]
But I come from a town where the appeal of serving in the military far outways the appeal of further education such as college.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I am sorry, but if people are inclined to join the military instead of getting an education merely because it is the "status quo," that is their problem. And that argument stll does nothing to refute the fact that all those that decide to join make a DECISION = CONSENTING = WILLING.</p>
<p>"Lies? Seriously? An isolated case, at best. The media is eager to jump on anything wrong in the military. Have you ever talked to an army recruiter in person? From your other posts, I seriously doubt it. Most, if not >99%, of military recruiters are very honest with those considering signing up. As for what they said, about no one being sent to Iraq, they most likely meant the unit the person would most likely be put in. The entire army is not stationed in Iraq, only certain divisions."</p>
<p>Most recruiters scour under-privileged areas in search for possible recruits, who otherwise have very few opportunities, and are disproportionately people of color. They patronizingly coerce impressionable young enlistees into signing up, by making such comments as "make your father proud" or "don't abandon your country". Recruiters exercise plausible deniability and mislead enlistees by glorifying and sugarcoating military life. Many also resort to unscrupulous tactics. McSwane, an undercover high school student, pretended to be a high school dropout. The recruiter advised McSwane to make up a high school and forge a diploma and accompanied him to a head shop to obtain a detox kit. Another student, sixteen at the time, was approached by a recruiter who coordinated a meeting at a local McDonalds, without parental consent. Just to mention another case, although there are many more, a recruiter in Houston was caught on tape threatening jail time to a potential enlistee if he didn't keep his appointment. Recruiters are generally washed up military members, whom were involuntarily transferred to their position. They don't care about the enlistees and exploit them to their own advantage.</p>
<p>An actual draft may not be in effect, but make no mistake a "poverty draft" evidently exists. I have not to this day - and I have lived on bases around the world for eleven years- met a single military member who belonged to an affluent family.</p>
<p>"The military does change people. But for the better."</p>
<p>I do not agree with this statement. Abuse is three to five times higher than the civilian population in a military family. I lived on a relatively small base (only a few hundred people) and quite a few of our MP's were pedophiles. Four of them had sex with thirteen and fourteen year old girls (many more wanted to). Two females were raped in their dorms. There were also many instances of military members instigating fights with local nationals (which was a sport to them) after drinking heavily. My step dad has been in the military for almost twenty years and became an alcoholic child abuser (his senior officials are aware, but they don't care). I'm not saying military members can be categorized or that all act so unscrupulously, but the military definitely affects many of their lives in a detrimental way. </p>
<p>Here are some articles containing some examples that I mentioned.</p>
<p>"ANYONE that can get a job with the military can get a civilian job. I am well aware of plenty of people that COULD have gotten regular jobs and saved up to attend a community college, but instead opted to join the military as the benefits were much greater. That's the deal: if you want the better benefits, you must serve. If you don't want to serve, make your own path."</p>
<p>I agree with this. I am personally against war, but those who join the military do so of their own volition. There may be cases in which they are coerced or misled, and that, I think, is a valid concern, but it's like anything else: Young people are often influenced by various forces, whether that be going to college, getting a certain job, joining the military, joining a religious cult, doing drugs, or whatever. One must seek out facts and research an issue before making a decision. Ultimately, one must take responsibility for one's own choices.</p>
<p>edit: gwilde, you have made very valid points also. There is truth in what you say.</p>
<p>The bottom line is that young people are vulnerable, and young disadvantaged (whether by race or by poverty) are more vulnerable than their affluent counterparts who have loving, supportive parents. They are also more vulnerable to being misled in other areas, such as drugs, joining religious cults, etc. This is unfortunately true. It is reprehensible that the recruiters may take advantage of them, and I don't doubt that they do, just as the leaders of religious cults take advantage of them also.</p>
<p>The best antidote, other than parental guidance and support which they may not have, is to offer information and education as much as possible, so they truly can make an INFORMED decision. I know of some movements that offer such info to counter that offered by military recruiters.</p>
<p>"The best antidote, other than parental guidance and support which they may not have, is to offer information and education as much as possible, so they truly can make an INFORMED decision. I know of some movements that offer such info to counter that offered by military recruiters."</p>
<p>Yes, fortunately numerous organizations disseminate such information. Some states; however, seem to fare better than others. California has quite a few prominent organizations; whereas, Texas does not. One may argue that Texan students are subsquently more susceptible to military propaganda. What incenses me though, is that a copious amount of high schools actually endorse military enlistment. Many issue the ASVAB, which determines eligibility, to students in their junior and senior year. A school is supposed to be a care-free environment; fostering learning and open-mindedness and void of such pressures.</p>
<p>Some high schools should change their policy to "no recruit left behind" to more voraciously represent their intentions.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Many issue the ASVAB, which determines eligibility, to students in their junior and senior year.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I took that test during my senior year and scored very highly. I haven't stopped receiving phone calls since. It is disappointing that high schools administer that test.</p>
<p>qwilde, I'm sorry that you seem to base your assumptions of the military on a fraction of the pop. You yourself said it was a small base.
[quote]
the military definitely affects many of their lives in a detrimental way.
[/quote]
It isn't the military that hurts people. It's what happens. Go to Iraq. Some people aren't affected at all; some are affected psychologically. But nothing can prevent that.</p>
<p>Where did you get the statistics of abuse?</p>
<p>Do you think America would be safer with a smaller military?</p>