Ivies and their reputation factor

<p>Hello, all. I feel like an intruder because I am only a high school senior who has not even enrolled into a college yet. However, I do have a dream of attending a law school at some point of my life. Since I’m very ignorant in the subject, I thought I’d ask you for some info/advice/experience.</p>

<li><p>In terms of getting admission to prestigious(ivy) law schools, does graduating from an equally prestigious college help? If it does, then how important is it in the admissions?</p></li>
<li><p>Is it better to do ‘average’ at a competitive/prestigious(ivy) school or ‘above average-not excellent’ at a big state school or a small unknown LAC?</p></li>
<li><p>I have heard that it’s impossible to attend a law school of the University where you attended the college.(ex) A Cornell undergrad has a very slim chance of getting into Cornell Law.</p></li>
<li><p>In reality and the career market, do the prestige and the reputation of one’s law school matter?? If they do, how so?</p></li>
<li><p>Do you think certain college and law school education affect one’s success in law career greatly?? In other words, do the lawyers of ivy or other great private institution degrees tend to be more competant and respected??</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Sorry for asking so many questions… So many people around me are obssessed with certain labels…and it really makes me to wonder about the truth about them…</p>

<p>Thank you very much for your help in advance…</p>

<ol>
<li> Most people agree that the reputation and prestige of your law school can matter greatly. Attending a top school makes it easier to get good, high-paying jobs, and is virtually a prerequisite for certain jobs. (There are actually several public schools that are ranked among the best in the nation, equal to or better than some ivies, so the Ivy/Private/Public distinction isn't determinative at this level.)<br></li>
</ol>

<p>It's unclear if attorneys from such schools are truly more competent, but they do appear to be more respected overall, at least unless and until you distinguish yourself in practice. (Class rank also matters wherever you study, of course.) </p>

<p>Law school reputation is probably far more important than undergradute reputation in terms of finding jobs generally. (Your undergrad degree probably won't affect your actual legal career much at all.)</p>

<ol>
<li><p>While it is nice to graduate from a top undergrad when applying to law school (and it may theoretically be eaiser to get good grades there due to grade inflation), your actual GPA will ultimately matter more than your undergrad. A 3.8 (or even 3.5) from Podunk U will probably have better odds of getting into a top law schooll than a 3.0 from Yale. </p></li>
<li><p>I certainly wouldn't say it's impossible to get into the law school of your undergrad university. For one thing, they're probably more likely to respect the undergraduate programs. On the other hand, you may be competing against a large number of applicants from the same school. Regardless, your personal numbers and accomplishments will matter more than anything else, wherever you apply. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>It's important to recognize that law school admissions are very numbers-driven, so your GPA and LSAT score will matter more than anything else. (The LSAT, in turn, is most important.) You should therefore try to study somewhere where you feel comfortable and wiill thrive, and you should study something you find challenging, but that you enjoy, and will do well in. (You may also end up deciding against law school, of course.)</p>

<p>We're also getting into the sticky issue of grade inflation, something highly prevalent at most Ivies. A GPA that is 'average' at an Ivy is often times higher than an 'above-average' GPA at a state school. Hence, when it comes to the highly numbers-driven law school admissions process, the 'average' Ivy GPA will then actually be more useful than the 'above-average' state-school GPA. </p>

<p>It is highly possible to attend the same law school as your undergrad. For example, far and away the most prolific source of Harvard Law students is Harvard College. </p>

<p>In reality, the prestige of your law school does matter in your law career, although one does need to be careful not to overestimate this effect. In general, about 3 law schools are considered to be tremendously respected (Harvard Law, Yale Law, Stanford Law), with the next 12 or 13 or so law schools also being highly respected. But of course things like class-rank, law review, and things like that play a strong role as well. The prestige of Harvard, Yale, and Stanford also tends to play a strong role if you ever want to attract clientele. However, clearly, nothing can replace good old fashioned hard work and legal knowledge. If you come from a no-name law school but work very hard and demonstrate great legal knowledge, you will do just fine.</p>

<p>Cornell has a large number of undegraduates interested in law school; its law school, on the other hand, is not is not large. </p>

<p>There is something of a "musical chairs" aspect to applying to law school. The Ivy League has eight members, but only five of them have law schools. Very few liberal arts colleges have law schools associated with them (Boston College is the only that comes to mind).</p>

<p>There are only about 4400 first-year students enrolled at the so-called "top 14" law schools; the number of people competing for those seats is far larger.</p>

<p>Greybeard-do you go to Cornell? Where would a 2.8-3.0 and a 160 get you into?</p>

<p>I went to Cornell for two years in the seventies.</p>

<p>Here's a link to a site with info on admission standards at ABA-accredited schools:
<a href="http://www.ilrg.com/rankings/law/index.php/1/asc/Accept%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.ilrg.com/rankings/law/index.php/1/asc/Accept&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>For your information, Boston College is a national university, not a liberal arts college</p>

<p>Greybeard,</p>

<p>Are those rankings meaningful? I was surprised to see University of Florida higher than Georgetown, NYU and Duke.</p>

<p>Don't think of them as quality rankings, per se. They're raw data rankings. You can click on any of the data points, and it will sort the schools by that criterion.</p>

<p>It does show how arbitrary some of the other supposedly "objective" ratings are. Weigh the various factors differently, and everything changes.</p>

<p>The percentage of acceptances for a school is not a perfect indicator of its quality, or even its selectivity. Take the University of Maryland, with the fifth lowest percentage of acceptances. The LSAT scores of its accepted applicants at the 25th and 75th percentile are each 11 points below the comparable numbers for Columbia, which accepts a higher percentage. Why? One reason is that there are more people in the range from which Maryland usually grants admission. It also has lower tuition, for another. It's also close to DC, which generates a disproportionate number of law school applications.</p>

<p>Percentage of admitted students varies by a lot of things that aren't related to school quality. Law school admissions tends towards more self-selection than undergrad; some law schools encourage large amounts of applications with fee waivers; and yield often depends on factors like affordability.</p>

<p>As for the Ivy league discussion...</p>

<ol>
<li>In terms of getting admission to prestigious(ivy) law schools, does graduating from an equally prestigious college help? If it does, then how important is it in the admissions?</li>
</ol>

<p>Really depends far too much on what schools you are talking about (both undergrad and law) to answer. Unfortunately, the debate often sinks to Harvard v. Mediocre State University... perhaps a more specific question would result in a good answer.</p>

<ol>
<li>Is it better to do 'average' at a competitive/prestigious(ivy) school or 'above average-not excellent' at a big state school or a small unknown LAC?</li>
</ol>

<p>Again, depends far too much on the schools. What law schools are you aiming for? Some will prefer the harder undergraduate education; some will prefer the higher GPA. Also, what about the Williams, Swathmore, Amherst, etc group?</p>

<ol>
<li>I have heard that it's impossible to attend a law school of the University where you attended the college.(ex) A Cornell undergrad has a very slim chance of getting into Cornell Law.</li>
</ol>

<p>That's complete b.s.. </p>

<p>Cornell Law has 200 students per class. Cornell undergraduate has thousands of students graduate annually. Also, Cornell is a lousy example because there are so many undergrad schools there - does it really take its hospitality grads seriously for the law school? Does it take its engineering grads, who have a 2.5 GPA, seriously?</p>

<p>NYU is also the school that people throw out to try to "prove" that point... but again, bad choice of schools. NYU Law is one of the most highly respected law schools in the country; however, it's undergrad, while solid, is not the same caliber.</p>

<p>Some school actively encourage their students to apply to law schools - some even have 3-3 programmes (bachelor's and JD in six years, not seven). Others accept into their classes a fair number of their own undergrads (perhaps 5-10% of the incoming class). </p>

<p>Harvard Law seems to love its own undergrads - each class of 550 has approximately 80 Harvard College grads. </p>

<p>Some of the reason for the myth is that some schools might be swamped with applications from their own undergrads and want their law schools to have some diversity.</p>

<p>Impossible, no.</p>

<ol>
<li>In reality and the career market, do the prestige and the reputation of one's law school matter?? If they do, how so?</li>
</ol>

<p>I won't get into the difficulty of defining "prestige and the reputation" of a law school... however, if you've done any preliminary law school research, you would find that reputation matters a great deal. Pay, percentage of graduates employed upon graduation, percentage of students in judicial clerkships, and percentages of students with law firm jobs decreases (generally) as you go down the rankings. Generally, a more prestigous school will open more doors.</p>

<p>This assumes all other things being equal - everything from geography to the effort you put into law school to journal membership.</p>

<p>Be aware, however, of the strong regional biases in schools. A graduate of my school (in the South) had some trouble applying to jobs in a mountain (i.e. western part of the country) state - the response he got from employers was, "Why did you go to that fancy school? What, [fill in with state] U wasn't good enough for you?" </p>

<ol>
<li>Do you think certain college and law school education affect one's success in law career greatly?? In other words, do the lawyers of ivy or other great private institution degrees tend to be more competant and respected??</li>
</ol>

<p>More competent - hard to say. More respected - at least initially, most likely. It also depends on what areas you are in - for example, my law school has a stronger reputation among judges than in private practice.</p>

<p>By the way, did you watch the Harriet Miers debacle? That should answer your question more than anything we can write (although, please realize that DC/NYC snobbiness differs from the rest of the country).</p>

<p>...what can I say that hasn't been said? </p>

<p>Let's see...</p>

<p>"Sorry for asking so many questions.."</p>

<p>Apology accepted. You could have probably found all the answers with a little research my high school friend.;)</p>

<p>"So many people around me are obssessed with certain labels..."</p>

<p>If so many people are obssesed about this, well, imagine what happens if "those people" happen to be the ones hiring.</p>

<p>"and it really makes me to wonder about the truth about them..."</p>

<p>There may not be any truth in the assumptions or biases, but nonetheless, that's they way things are --and will probably continue to be for a long time, or at least by the time you graduate LS.</p>

<p>"Thank you very much for your help in advance"</p>

<p>You are welcome! :D (I realize I am not the biggest contributor).</p>

<p>P.S. Good to see Cardozo back on the forum. Welcome back! :)</p>

<p>I don't know that Cardozo's really back. This is a thread from last January and February that was resurrected when a new member pointed out to me (correctly) that Boston College, despite its name, is classified as a national university. The OP is presumably enrolled in college now, but doesn't seemto have posted anything since March.</p>

<p>LOL! Silly me! Thanks, Graybeard.</p>

<p>Since it's alive, what is "
By the way, did you watch the Harriet Miers debacle? That should answer your question more than anything we can write (although, please realize that DC/NYC snobbiness differs from the rest of the country)." about?</p>

<p>As has been pointed out before on this board, item #2 is a false dilemma. You may not automatically do worse if you go to a better school, and vice versa. It may even be the opposite, that going to a better school motivates you to do better.</p>

<p>Even though the original poster may not have seen the thread, I am a senior in high school now, and had some similar concerns and questions, so I thank everyone who answered.</p>