<p>May i point out once again that comparing UNDERGRADUATE schools based on the average number of CEOS they graduated is ridiculous?</p>
<p>barrons, you're still not getting it... sure ok the percentage of people within each decile would come into play after the initial comparison of IQs but the point is that, ok, the smarter you are the better job you'll get BUT that your initial standing in life has a large part to play in how far you'll get. Like I said the meritocratic theory definitly has some (forgive the lack of word choice) merit to it. That quote you found, is almost certainly (although I didn't look at the website you provided) from a proponent of that theory. Like with anything there are many different theories, but to simply dismiss the fact, that says where people start off in life is an unnecessary part to the formula, would be ludicrous. All that does is allow you to inflate your own ego. Chances are if you're on this website you're going to some kind of college (which is more than the three lowest deciles can say), and so by saying what you're saying now, you imply that you got there because you deserve it. I'm not saying you didn't/don't but I'm saying that if you came from an upperclass family, or even middle class then the probability that someone like you would go to college (and therefore the chance of you becoming more successful than the average joe) is much higher and therefore less dependent on actual intelligence. (and for our sake IQ)</p>
<p>Ubermensch, to put it bluntly I believe that your entire philosophy about quality college education is wrong.</p>
<p>I saw you refer to Stanford and MIT as "Gods". Yet, the University of Chicago for example has acedemics considered by many experts to be equal in toughness to the Ivies, but without the prestige. Does this make Chicago a significantly worse school because it is easier to get into than the Ivies (need I tell you that more Noble laureates came from Chicago than any other college except Cambridge)? All you seem to be obsessed about is prestige, not the actual education. </p>
<p>Now about how that applies to this post. I'll grant you that almost all public universities, especially at the undergrad level, aren't as rigorous as Ivies. However, the number of CEOs a school churns out says nothing about the school itself - it says something about the applicants. People who apply to Ivies are typically the elite, and in many cases bred to go to these schools by their parents and community. Many of these people are led to believe that the Ivies are the only option because if you don't go to an Ivy you won't really go anywhere -this just simply isn't true. It's a cliche example, but look at Bill Gates. He dropped out of Harvard because he essentially judged it not worth his time and money, due to the fact that he could easily survive on his own. Moreover, it's graduate education that truely matters - if you are an exceptional student in a good public school (e.g. UNC), or lesser known good private school who wasn't motivated quite enough in high school to get into an Ivy, you still have an excellent shot at an Ivy/Ivy equivalent graduate program (which, ironically, is where many of the schools you consider to be "lesser" excel - specific graduate areas). I know that I can't get into an Ivy not because I'm not smart enough (my grades are Ivy-caliber), but because I simply don't stand out. But that doesn't mean I won't work my ass off when I go to college to get into a good graduate school for my field of study. </p>
<p>Also, there is a huge economic divide at the Ivies/their elite friends. Let's face the facts, people who are at an economic disadvantage typically have fewer oppurtunities than the ones who are well-off. That's not to say they can't do anything exceptional in high school because they certainly can, but they have to work harder and search for more methods of success than someone well off. I read part of the Cornell Freshman Survey, and over 80% had a combined family income of over $50,000 - quite an overwhelming majority. IIRC the average median family income of the United States is around 55k. </p>
<p>Did you get rejected by the elite schools by any chance, and now idolize them to a ridiculous extent? Or are you just some superegosticial member of one of the "god" schools?</p>
<p>i commend ohnoes for a wonderful comment. what ohnoes said is very true. those who swim in the sink or swim environment of the publics, or those who take the iniative to take advantage of the limited resources at their less prestigious schools will still make it up top in the end. those people with the attitude that "its about who you are, not where youre from or where youre at" will most likely still be successful in the very end, and i respect those type of people because they worked to overcome obstacles, no matter how big or small they may be.</p>
<p>kfc4u what you mentioned is exactly true...in the LONG RUN, life is fair...those who are smart and ambitious will come out on top in the long run. But for those of us who want to be successful and be able to enjoy that success before we turn 50, the top private schools provide the best opportunities...and if you only respect people who go to public schools, then you're pretty shallow. I may hate the ivy league because of all the politics associated with admission, but state schools have even more random admissions because of how many people they have to accept from in-state...i have a better chance of getting into harvard than i do of getting into UNC Chapel Hill.</p>
<p>Before you turn 50? You do realize that most people care about where you get your <em>graduate</em> degree from, not your undergraduate degree?</p>
<p>well, first of all, lets say your right and people do care more about graduate school, then i also realize that the top private schools will give me a greater advantage in applying to a top graduate school...im just being realistic...if you expect to get into Harvard grad school straight out of U Wisconsin, its not impossible, but you better have done something damn special to deserve consideration...</p>
<p>Second, what if you choose to work right after undergrad school? Me, im interested in banking and Wall street...i plan on getting an MBA, but no top MBA program will accept me without 3 or 4 years of work experience...where i go for undergrad will decide where i work and how much i make for those first 3 or 4 years. A top school = heavy recruiting = working for a great company = better chance of getting into top graduate program...its all relative.</p>
<p>no i respect people from top privates too, its no easy thing to get into top privates, even if you come from an advantageous background. but i think people on CC tend to overlook those who either couldnt make a top private undergrad or chose not to attend a top private for undergrad. and for those talented and motivated (and originally disadvantaged) students who attend less prestigious undergrad schools, they can still be as successful when they turn 50, they just spend maybe 3 more years at a grad/professional program and then earn salaries comparable to or better than their top private graduate counterparts (if thats what u define success by)</p>
<p>theres also a good amount of heavy recruiting at undergrad schools that are good (but not as good as top privates). thus the opportunity for the path that you described is still available. otherwise, all the non-top privates would be considered crap and no one would have a bright future coming out of there (and we know this isnt true). </p>
<p>sample list of recruiters for UCLA biz econ majors: pricewaterhouse coopers, deloitte & touche, ernst & young, morgan stanley llp, goldman sachs & co, lehman bros, standard & poors, eli lilly & co, procter & gamble, analysis group, bdo seidman llp, ag edwards...</p>
<p>not that bad huh ;)</p>
<p>It depends on what you want...i, for one, am not rich or from a privileged background, but i have big dreams and lots of ambition...i want to take all the right steps now so that i can be financially successful as soon as possible so that i can focus on enjoying life and learning about the things that interest me.</p>
<p>I'll grant you that MBAs are the exception compared to law, med, or general science graduate programs. However, keep in mind that I am talking about the top public schools here (Mich, UVA, UNC, Cal, etc.) and lesser-acknowledged good privates - you should still be able to find good work, although you might not make as much as an Ivy-grad in that 3-4 year span.</p>
<p>The reason that the average Ivy undergrad is much more successful is that most of them are motivated (or a select few have obscenely rich/influencial familes). At public schools, like UNC, not all of the student body is motivated - living in NC, I know quite a few people who are frankly not that smart who got into UNC, and certainly don't plan on going past their BA. But for a motivated student a top public college is certainly a viable choice - John Edwards, aside from being a politician, was one of the premier personal injury lawyers in NC, if not the county. He attended NC State for an undergrad degree (which isn't on the same level as the colleges I listed above), and got a graduate degree from UNC in law.</p>
<p>Well, there you go, we're in agreement...as long as you're motivated and intelligent, you'll be successful...like i said earlier, you'll find extraordinarily talented students at both Ivys and UNC, but the overall student body at the Ivys will be better because, as you mentioned, UNC has a certain in-state quota to fill. </p>
<p>Off the topic, though John Edwards may be a good trial lawyer, i think hes rather simple and not too intelligent, especially compared to Kerry. (off the topic...we dont have to discuss this :))</p>
<p>Well, living from NC and having read up on some of his trials, he was certainly a clever lawyer, and won obscene amounts of money in some of his cases (keep in mind this was before the lawsuit-explosion of the late 90s). As a politician I think he is overrated, and banks more on his looks (despite the fact that he is 50) rather than his background and political record.</p>
<p>Dartmyth--I came form a very much lower working class and minority background. By paying attention in school and using my natural ability, I found it fairly easy to get through college and grad school without a cent from my family. So maybe I do believe in the IQ meritocracy more than some who see only failure for the lower class and easy success for the upper class. After a long time in the working world with people from all backgrounds I am very sure that it takes lots of hard work and smarts to get ahead and stay ahead.</p>
<p>UBERMENSCH, obviously, Wisconsin has not produced as many current CEOs as the big 5 combined. That is an unfair comparison. Does Wisconsin claim to be equal to the big 5? Does anybody on this forum claim that it is equal to the big 5? The point is, Wisconsin deserves equal respect as schools like Rice or Georgetown. It is one of the nation'ws top 25 universities.</p>
<p>Exactly Alexandre, your grouping had to do with similarities of students attracted to the school, competitiveness etc, but you also made reference to the four points Taxguy mentioned. You will find more students share these traits at the Ivy League (all of them) than Harvard and Cal-tech for insistence. You are the only person, btw, I attacked, and therefore, I do not know how you became plural.</p>
<p>"All of them"? I beg to differ. I've seen quite a few Ivy students who are just people that have been ran off the good-student-conveyor-belt at the urging of their parents.</p>
<p>Colleges and Universities are like vehicles. A small expensive sports car, a pick up truck and a limo serve different purposes. If you want to be a plumber or a surfer Harvard might not be your best choice if your decision is based on improving your career chances.</p>
<p>Some people choose schools or avoid them because of weather, location, cultural (including overbearing Fraternities, sports teams...) or because they knew or know people at those schools.</p>
<p>If you need an ego crutch, brand name schools are probably a must. If you are looking for a specific education some colleges with little name recognition have departments that would knock your socks off, (Beloit for anthropology, or so I am told).</p>
<p>If you are a typical high school senior, unsure of your major but wanting a good education, you will probably want to weigh a couple of things, where do the graduates go after they are done; how long does it take them to finish (some public schools have overcrowded classes that shut students out causing a delay in meeting requirements); what is their alumni network and reputation going to do for me; do they offer enough support in a variety of areas so I could change my major in a year or two?</p>
<p>As for world wide recognition, I think there was a survey in the London Times a few months ago and Harvard and Berkeley came out on top. I would add that Cornell's (public) College of Agriculture and Life Sciences is also recognized around the world but people interested in food production and biology.</p>
<p>The truth is that success falls in part on the educational institution and part on the individual. I have an Ivy education and took a career shift to become a teacher because of my concern for public education. The creator of "Sponge Bob Square Pants" went to Humbolt state in Northern California. Success has multiple meanings, the ability to do what you want, or the size of your assets reflect only two standards of success. On many scales graduates from little known schools have gone on to greatness. Some people achieve financial success without graduating a four year school, (Bill Gates, Martin Sheen).</p>
<p>Some posters imply that education is only successful when you become a CEO, I would argue that it is successful when you understand and help people, enjoy a good book, painting or piece of music.<br>
PARTING POINT
There are three ancient questions. Who is a rich man? Who is a strong Man? and Who is a wise man?</p>
<p>A wise man can learn from the most foolish of his neighbors, a strong man is strong enough to control himself and a rich man is a man who is content with his efforts in life.</p>
<p>Mr.B: what a great post.</p>
<p>Mr. B, you must be a fantastic teacher. You don't teach in Northern California, do you?</p>