Ivy League vs. UCL, McGill, University of Toronto

College Search & Selection
1

<p>Hello all!</p>

<p>So this is the situation, I have offers to study the following for undergrad and I have a few questions for you guys:</p>

<p>Law at UCL (University College London)</p>

<p>Law at King's College London</p>

<p>Business at University of Toronto</p>

<p>Business at McGill</p>

<p>1) Which one of these should I opt for? I want a career related to management or law, but I'm not dead set on anything yet. Most likely something to do with business though. So, which one would be more prestigious internationally?</p>

<p>2) How does Law at UCL compare to studying an undergrad degree at Ivy Leagues? I am thinking universities like Brown, Columbia, Cornell, and UPenn.</p>

<p>I am asking because I would like to know which of these options to pick between UK/Canada, and also I would like to know how they compare to those US unis. I have 44 out of 45 on the IB (International Baccalaureate) so I could get into some pretty good ivy leagues.. so I'm wondering if I should re-apply next year!</p>

<p>IMPORTANT: I am almost definitely going to apply for a graduate degree in USA, possibly an MBA, so that is important to keep in mind.</p>

<p>Thanks everyone!</p>

2

<p>“Which one would be more prestigious internationally?”</p>

<p>uuuuuuuuuuuugh. Pick one of the 4 to which you currently applied. It is ridiculous to delay a year based on some silly pursuit of “international prestige.”</p>

<p>UCL, Toronto & McGill are well highly regarded institutions.</p>

3

<p>Look, I am not in some “silly pursuit of international prestige”. </p>

<p>I am simply trying to fulfil my long-term goal of applying to a top USA graduate university, and was wondering how either one my options or reapplying to ivy leagues would help me with this.</p>

<p>Also, I would like some perspective on how UCL fares with Ivy Leagues, just out of curiosity. Not necessarily because I want to reapply! Hope you understand :)</p>

4

<p>To be honest: All of these universities are fine. Just like many universities. If you plan on getting an MBA in the States, there are many many things that will be more relevant.
Namely:

  • the job/company you worked at before applying to the MBA program
  • your experience
  • professional connections
  • college preparation/GPA/class rigor (which you be able to receive at any given institution of the ones you listed
  • convincing recommendations
  • convincing interviews
  • and good test scores (if applicable)</p>

<p>Just go to a university where you will be able to perform excellently and that offers you enough access to the opportunities you want to take advantage of.
(-> internships for example, but London, Toronto, and Montreal will all offer you countless intership options :))</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

5

<p>Thank you SophieIsabel, that is very helpful. Gave me more insight into what MBA admissions consist of! Do any of you think that studying Law at undergraduate could put me at a disadvantage for an MBA as opposed to something like economics/management?</p>

<p>I would love to hear more opinions about how UCL is regarded as opposed to Ivies!</p>

6

<p>

</p>

<p>You don’t know this at all. Once you’re above a certain threshold, admission at Ivy-caliber schools is highly holistic. Students with perfect stats are routinely rejected. A bird in hand is worth two in the bush. Don’t reapply; go to one of the fine institutions that has already accepted you. Congratulations.</p>

<p>Why do you want to get an MBA in the US? What do you want to do with it? The thing is that in the US, law is a graduate degree; also, law degrees are not as transferable as others because different countries have very different legal systems. I would think that business as a general discipline would be more internationally flexible. Why study law in the UK if you don’t want to live in the UK and practice? That would be my question.</p>

7

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<p>Yes, of course, I am not saying that anything is guaranteed. However, it does give me a decent chance.</p>

<p>

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<p>I would like to pursue an MBA in the US after getting an undergraduate degree and some work experience because I want to work in an area related to Management at the top level. The USA offers the best MBA programs, which is my target.</p>

<p>I agree that law degrees are not as flexible, and that is one of the reasons why I am considering reapplying to the US for Business. I want to study law in the UK because it is a strong and well-regarded area that I enjoy, I do not intend to become a lawyer and practice in the UK.</p>

<p>Do you think having a law degree from the UK would put me at a disadvantage as opposed to Business in the US? (for management related positions and MBA applications in the US)</p>

8

<p>

</p>

<p>Do you define 10% as a decent chance? This is not to say that you are not a worthy applicant; it is to say that the vast majority of qualified applicants get rejected from these places. Please do not cast aside your good undergraduate acceptances to chase an Ivy pipe dream. What is your school counselor telling you? At any rate, even if you go to an Ivy, unless you are a US citizen or green card holder, it will be hard for you to stay in the US after graduation unless a company is willing to sponsor you for a visa. They are becoming increasingly reluctant to do this because it is getting very expensive for a mere junior hire.</p>

<p>Are you a US citizen or green card holder? </p>

<p>Where do you want to live and work as an adult? </p>

<p>I don’t think your current decision should be driven by concerns about getting into US MBA programs. That’s too far down the line and you don’t know enough about your goals yet. “Top level management” is vague. What industry? What kind of work? You need to stop thinking in terms of overall prestige and reputation and start thinking about concrete goals. All prestige is relative. Going to UCL to study law over McGill for business is not going to make you more employable in the US in a generic sense IMHO. </p>

<p>There is also an MBA sub forum here where you might get some insight.
[Business</a> School - MBA - College Confidential](<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/business-school-mba/]Business”>Business School - MBA - College Confidential Forums)</p>

9

<p>Thank you for your valuable advice, NJSue.</p>

<p>Yes, I do mean a 10% in terms of decent chance. I am fully aware of how difficult the admissions process is.</p>

<p>“Going to UCL to study law over McGill for business is not going to make you more employable in the US in a generic sense IMHO.”</p>

<p>So, would your suggestion be to attend McGill in my position? I’ve been told many different things, and I just want to maximise my chances of landing a good job related to Business. I cannot know where I want to work and live yet, as it will depend on which firms give me offers. However, it will most likely be either Canada, USA, or Europe. Actually, Toronto and Montreal sound like nice places to live.</p>

<p>In the end, does not having a business degree, but rather a law degree from UCL, hurt my chances of breaking into the business world in one of those countries?</p>

10

<p>Nobody can know that, Really. </p>

<p>I would say that it won’t prepare you as well, because as Sue pointed out, studying Law at UCL by nature prepares you for work as a lawyer (although of course there is business law.) If the Law Degree at UCL is a restrictive as most other IK degrees, it might be a wiser choice to select a degree that gives you a foundation on economics/mathematics.
Yet, at the same time this is true: Most MBA students pursue the MBA because their current work position requires it, or they lack the necessary skills to be promoted to a higher lev of management. So by nature, an MBA will not require a strong foundation in any specific subject, so there is no reason why you could not be successful with a Law degree from UCL. </p>

<p>For your job chances however, the dilemma you perceive yourself to be in is nonexistent. As I said, none of these universities will give you an advantage or disadvantage the others. It is a question of what country you want to live in (I have lived in Canada and spent a lot of time in the UK, and they are VERY different :)) and what degree you are most interested in. </p>

<p>Don’t plan your future this far ahead. How do you know that you like the corporate America, or economics, or management, if you have never worked in such a company? </p>

<p>Maybe you’ll marry someone from New Zealand and that’s where you will spend the rest of your life. Just be open and choose the university which for RIGHT NOW is a good choice. This means: -where you have interesting classes to pick from
-where the degree structure is to your liking
-where academic support is available at the level you might need it
-where the country and culture correlate with the life you you picture yourself leading in a year or so

  • where study abroad/internships etc. Are offered on countries/companies you like
    -where you can pay the tuition and fees (just saying- look at apartment rents in London)
  • where you can be a happy, healthy, academically successful student. </p>

<p>That will lead you right where you need to be in life, I am certain of that. </p>

<p>Regards,</p>

11

<p>SophieIsabel, thank you. That was the most comprehensive answer I’ve ever gotten. I will definitely refer to your advice while making my choices. Although life in Canada seems amazing, London is also absolutely great. As arguably the most influential city in the world and in Europe, the work connections and opportunities I get there would be massive. </p>

<p>Since you have lived in Canada and spent time in UK, what would you say are the main differences really in terms of social life and such?</p>

<p>Also, you’re right about the MBA. In any case, I love Business, and I love doing case studies. I feel like maybe Business Consultancy might be the best choice for me. In that case, London is a great spot, and Law a great background. Entering something like McKinsey’s London HQ (which deals with all of Europe + Middle East) would probably be relatively easy with a Law degree from a top institution like UCL.</p>

<p>Thanks again, really appreciate it :)</p>

12

<p>I think that Business at UT or McGill would be more portable. It’s also rather easy to work in Canada but you’d be an immigrant, so not as easy as working in the UK. Then it’d depend on whether you speak French and would be able to become bilingual (big plus) or would be hindered by the bilingual nature of Montreal - certainly everyone speaks English well, but not speaking French is a definite handicap. UT is closer to English Unis and you wouldn’t need to learn French, which can be a plus or a minus depending on what you’d want to specialize in (although not speaking French even outside Quebec is not tops).
However, if you can get a First at UCL then job in a London company, that’s what would matter for getting into a top MBA (assuming you retain your test taking skills).
Finally, there’s the cultural discovery factor, that must have motivated you to apply to UT and McGill, right?
So if you’d rather go abroad, go to Canada, if you’d rather stay in the UK go to UCL.</p>

<p>As an international, your odds in the Ivy League are about 3-4%. Your 44 will not help you much because the decision will not depend on it and may even hurt you if you appear as a “drone” ie., if that’s all you have. Now if you also have conducted research, have a Gold Duke of Edinburgh Award, and were rugby captain, plus 2200 on the SAT’s, things would be different and your odds would get to 10%.</p>

<p>But why would you even want to? Seriously, in the US, what matters is FIRST how well you do at the school and in the subject/course you chose. For the MBA, the job you had and how well you did it will factor heavily too. You <em>will</em> need quantitative skills though so make sure to stay on top of basic maths, stats, probabilities, etc. it will be expected you’ll have taken Calculus (roughly, A Level Maths, not Further Maths).</p>

13

<p>I speak perfect french, as I was born and raised in France :)</p>

<p>“Finally, there’s the cultural discovery factor, that must have motivated you to apply to UT and McGill, right?”</p>

<p>Not exactly, I applied because they are good universities but are relatively easy to get into compared to top US universities. My main goal was and is the UK, with Canada as secondary options. The glaring difference, of course, is Law in UK vs, Business in Canada. That’s what I’m trying to get a grip on.</p>

<p>Yeah, my odds would be low in ivy league, but I think I’d land a place somewhere good. Even if not an ivy league, then a very top university. But you’re right, being an international doesn’t help!</p>

<p>I have done some research in Business, have lots of sports, very relevan extracurriculars, lots of community service etc. so I think the 10% could possibly apply to me.</p>

<p>“But why would you even want to? Seriously, in the US, what matters is FIRST how well you do at the school and in the subject/course you chose.”</p>

<p>What do you mean by this? Are you saying the US school system is not as pleasant? I’m not sure I understood.</p>

<p>And yeah, I have a 7/7 in IB Mathematics, thats not much of an issue.</p>

<p>Right now I’m leaning towards taking the UCL offer, as its basically as good as an ivy league, and Law is a very reputable subject especially if I decide to work anywhere in Europe.</p>

<p>Any more advice is VERY welcome :slight_smile: !</p>

14

<p>I am confused, if you like business why did you apply to law at UCL and ICL? Do they not have business undergrads in the UK? Also there are some very good universities in France, did you apply to any of them? It is also worth noting that if you are a French citizen you pay incredibly low tuition rates at Quebec universities (including McGill). You pay the same amount as Quebec residents and less than out of province Canadians: [International</a> Fee Exemptions | Legal Documents - McGill University](<a href=“International Fee Exemptions | Legal Documents - McGill University”>International Fee Exemptions | Legal Documents - McGill University)). These rules also apply to citizens of other French speaking countries as well- you can thank the crazy Quebec provincial government for this one, Quebec has to be the only place in the world where foreigners get to go to university for less than nationals. Also in your favor is that being bilingual is a HUGE advantage in Quebec. Provincial regulations as well as the fact that the majority of the province is French speaking makes fluent French a near necessary for any sort of management job in Quebec. However also speaking English is a big advantage because a lot of Quebec companies have business operations in the rest of Canada and the US, so many Quebec companies specifically look for bilingual applicant s for entry level jobs. So in short McGill would be the cheapest option of the bunch, even cheaper than the UK universities, and being bilingual would be a major competitive advantage if you decided to work in Quebec after graduation.</p>

15

<p>Unfortunately, Business degrees at undergraduate level in the UK are really bad compared to US. Most people see it as an ‘easy’ subject like sociology, which is a pity since I love it. </p>

<p>Good information about McGill, bilingualism, and fee reductions. Thank you for that! McGill is definitely a viable option, and probably a very close 2nd choice to UCL Law.</p>

<p>The thing is, I really enjoy Law as well, but I know that I probably won’t want to become a lawyer in the end. So I am hoping to enter an area like Business Consultancy after studying Law. This is a much better scenario in the UK than studying undergrad Business, as Law is seen as one of the toughest subjects with the best transferable skills.</p>

<p>I really appreciate your opinion, NamelesStatistic; as well as any more out there who may have points of view to share!</p>

16

<p>Well then why not do law and then do something like corporate law? Sounds like a perfect mix of your two interests.</p>

<p>Strange that business is seen as a soft option in the UK. In Canada and the US business departments are often among the departments that have the highest admissions standards at a university. Here they are definitely NOT seen as an easy degree.</p>

<p>In the UK are you a lawyer after just a bachelors degree (and I am assuming something akin to a bar exam)? Furthermore I have heard that UK degrees are only 3 years long, so does that mean it only takes 3 years of education to practice law in the UK?</p>

<p>FYI Here in Canada and (for my knowledge) the US a law degree is taken subsequent to a 4 year bachelors degree and is a professional degree akin to something like medical school.</p>

17

<p>NamelessStatistic: Actually, in the US also business is seen as a “soft” subject, except if the university has guaranteed entrance for stats in which case business tends to be a little more selective but nowhere near Honors CAS, and in specific schools such as Wharton. What also matters is whether it’s just a Business Dept/major, or if there’s a full College of Business, especially if it recruits after 2 years of university work and can select from the university’s student pool. So essentially, business is better at the two extreme, the bottom 30% schools and the top 5% schools, and in the middle is considered a “soft” subject (especially when non-AACSB accredited and non-math based). The most surprising findings were that it wasn’t even THAT much worth it in terms of career for the middle group, unless one can get an MBA or were an exceptionnally involved student. When preparing for a Top Law School, a student would be better advised to major in Philosophy, History, Classics, Political Science, Economics, or STEM, rather than Business, for instance (doesn’t mean Business students don’t get into law school but rather that business is like nursing, not meant for professional school so it’d take a non-ordinary major to make it - once again, with a few exceptions at the top where professional school is the norm - and that doesn’t mean applicants shouldn’t take one business-related class or two if they have space in their schedules.)
Research has even been done showing that business majors are those who are asked to do the least writing, the least reading, and effectively do the less homework. (Most hw goes to Engineering, Most reading/writing goes to Humanities and some social sciences which comes with the territory.)</p>

<p>OP: Yes if you have Maths at IB Level, and ESPECIALLY if it’s HL, you’re absolutely fine for McGill Business. If you’re fluent in French, why didn’t you apply to the “rheims campus” of Sciences po? (just curious). Although I understand UCL Law is a better choice in terms of career!</p>

<p>I guess it’ll depend on whether you want to study business right now, or 5-6 years from now. You can also see whether you may get into NCH.</p>

18

<p>NamelesStatistics,</p>

<p>“Well then why not do law and then do something like corporate law? Sounds like a perfect mix of your two interests.”</p>

<p>Yes, this is definitely a viable option. I had thought of it before, I guess I’ll have to stick with it for 3 years first and see just how much I enjoy it!</p>

<p>“In the UK are you a lawyer after just a bachelors degree (and I am assuming something akin to a bar exam)? Furthermore I have heard that UK degrees are only 3 years long, so does that mean it only takes 3 years of education to practice law in the UK?”</p>

<p>All undergraduate degrees in the UK are 3 years, which is really cool as a job market advantage over other countries (you can get more work experience/entrepreneurship in your CV).</p>

<p>MYOS1634,</p>

<p>Thank you for your opinion regarding Business majors, I have definitely heard the exact same from many sources. I do agree that UCL Law is my best option at the moment, and given UCL’s international reputation and high academic teaching in the field of Law, it should be a great start to whatever future endeavours I decide to pursue!</p>

19

<p>I don’t really have anything to add to what others said about your questions, But I suggest you to have few things in mind:

  • There is a program called Joint MBA/JD that many the top schools offer. (e.g. Harvard, Stanford) Have it in mind.
  • I’m not really familiar with the UK law schools, but I know that the law education system in UK is different from the US.
  • Most MBA students have STEM backgrounds, rather than pre-law/ law…
    [Which</a> Undergrad Major is Most Preferred by the Top MBA Programs?](<a href=“http://www.beatthegmat.com/mba/2009/11/20/which-undergrad-major-is-most-preferred-by-the-top-mba-programs]Which”>http://www.beatthegmat.com/mba/2009/11/20/which-undergrad-major-is-most-preferred-by-the-top-mba-programs)
  • Canadian schools (generally) are cheaper than (tuition and fees) US and UK schools. Living expenses are also “considerably” less. For instance, Toronto is the most expensive city of Canada, but living expenses still are 25% cheaper than London.
    I don’t know how rich are you; but if you want to go to expensive grad schools it is always better to have more savings!
  • Business schools in Canada have different environment/ academics than US schools. Try to learn as much as you can about them. Specifically, learn more about BComm programs courses.</p>