<p>Salaries are not a sign of social utility. In many cases, the schools whose graduates have the highest salaries, those for example that produce investment bankers, seemed to me to be most adept at giving us a class of social parasites who produce no real wealth. Often people with the highest salaries add nothing to the public weal as compared to any social worker or school teacher.</p>
<p>well honestly how many students are in it for the social utility vs the salary... I don't have any illusions as to which one I'm after...</p>
<p>Most popular career for Harvard grads: "Executive Director, Non-Profit Organization," median salary $62,100. Not everyone's in it for the money.</p>
<p>This is of course group data that is not comparing like to like. Students from state U's with profiles similar to the Ivy plus group have in past studies, I believe, shown about the same income trend.</p>
<p>I just have to say that having a child at Bucknell (#1 LAC ranking in this study and #13 overall?), a child at Cornell (#12 overall I believe) and a child at Colgate ( right behind Bucknell ( #2) in the LAC ranking)--maybe it will be worth some of the tuition (sacrifice?) we are paying.</p>
<p>My daughter (Bucknell) asked me what major I thought she should pursue. I suggested one that is lucrative. She indicated that she thought I would say one that makes her happy. I agreed that I want her to be happy but that people aren't often happy when they are poor. </p>
<p>As parents I think we all know that many of the things we could live with as youths became unacceptable as adults. I want a car that works, a comfortable bed, food (obviously) and not having to worry about the bills.
I am not talking about a Mc Mansion, 2 SUV's, a hummer and a beach house.</p>
<p>So there is nothing wrong with making a good salary. And I really disagree that Investment Bankers are parasites. (You need to learn a bit about finance and economics.)</p>
<p>Hooray that my kids hard work might pay off!!! Hooray that my husband and my payment's might pay off!! </p>
<p>By the way, we are both college professors. Not the highest paid folks.</p>
<p>The richest person in my Harvard class was no scholar and didn't go on to grad school. He made his billions in investments and was born into money and connections as well. DH and I both did graduate work at top schools (Caltech and Columbia) and feel pretty middle class, though as people keep reminding DadII, in the grand scheme of things we are affluent. Dh is college prof and I make less than he does.</p>
<p>Don't forget nepotism. It's always been the biggest hiring factor in the financial industry, i.e., Wall Street and its various appendages. </p>
<p>I've seen many a new grad from good schools that were rightfully disappointed that other, lesser qualified but connected applicants, were hired instead of themselves.</p>
<p>
[quote]
This is of course group data that is not comparing like to like. Students from state U's with profiles similar to the Ivy plus group have in past studies, I believe, shown about the same income trend.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Past studies actually showed the opposite. Students attending more selective colleges make more money, everything else being equal. </p>
<p>The most mis-quoted study on the payoff of attending selective colleges, by Dale and Krueger concludes:</p>
<p>
[quote]
Based on the straightforward regression results in column 1, men who attend the most competitive colleges [according to Barron's 1982 ratings] earn 23 percent more than men who attend very competitive colleges, other variables in the equation being equal.
[/quote]
</p>
<p><a href="http://www.irs.princeton.edu/pubs/pdfs/409.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://www.irs.princeton.edu/pubs/pdfs/409.pdf</a> See page 24.</p>
<p>The 23% difference was just between the most competitive and the very competitive colleges. The difference was even greater with the next tier of competitive colleges. </p>
<p>An often quoted finding of the study was that when colleges were rated based on average SAT score, students who were admitted to schools with different SAT average scores and who decided to attend a school with a lower average SAT score didnt earn any less money then their peers at the school with the higher SAT averages. This was wrongly interpreted to mean that it doesnt matter what school a student attends. </p>
<p>But what the study REALLY said is that the average SAT score of a school is unimportant, what is important is how highly ranked it is. </p>
<p>
[quote]
Average SAT scores of student may be too coarse a measure to actually reflect a student's peer group or education quality once school selection is taken into account. ** Even after adjusting for selection, however, we do find that the school a student attends matters for his or hers subsequent income. The characteristics of schools that influence students' subsequent income appear better captured by Barron's broad measure of school selectivity than average SAT scores.**
[/quote]
</p>
<p>They also discovered that there was a benefit to attending a more expensive school. The more expensive the tuition the higher the lifetime return. </p>
<p>
[quote]
The internal rate of return on tuition was quite high, in the neighborhood of 20 to 30 percent.
[/quote]
They speculated that the greater investment per student by private colleges, greater quality signaling effect with employers, and peer spillover effect were the principal causes for the higher return.</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
Salaries are not a sign of social utility. In many cases, the schools whose graduates have the highest salaries, those for example that produce investment bankers, seemed to me to be most adept at giving us a class of social parasites who produce no real wealth. Often people with the highest salaries add nothing to the public weal as compared to any social worker or school teacher.
[/QUOTE]
</p>
<p>What if the investment banker creates more jobs?</p>
<p>There is such huge ongoing effort to try to make the argument that an Ivy or selective undergrad education is a stupid investment. As the parent of an Ivy-bound freshman this fall, I have lost count of the lectures I've received from relatives, neighbors, high school teachers, high school students, work colleagues, members of my church and the cashier at my grocery store about what a terrible waste of money we are making in sending our D to Harvard. </p>
<p>The general refrain goes something like" "Save the money for grad school! Send her to state U and then send her to an Ivy for med school or law school or business school."</p>
<p>DH and I are public U grads and are going totally by our gut instincts that this is, in fact, an extremely good investment to be making for our D.</p>
<p>I really appreciate this study and the report that has come out.</p>
<p>Interesting article but very wanting on methodology. Even if the raw data is correct many more factors must be considered to draw any valid conclusions. In fact the most exhaustive academic study concerning this drew the opposite conclusion, ie that for any particular individual future salary is independent of the college attended.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Interesting article but very wanting on methodology. Even if the raw data is correct many more factors must be considered to draw any valid conclusions. In fact the most exhaustive academic study concerning this drew the opposite conclusion, ie that for any particular individual future salary is independent of the college attended.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>What exhaustive study are you referring to? </p>
<p>I believe you are actually thinking about the above Princeton study by Dale & Krueger. It is THE study that everybody is misinterpreting. The problem is that nobody actually read the study itself. Every other major study has reached the same conclusion. Which college you attend does matter. A lot!</p>
<p>As far as study methodology, feel free to point out its flaws.</p>
<p>There are so many factors that can go into play when it comes to jobs and salaries (GPA, connections, interviews, work ethic, etc.) that it is impossible to say that going to an Ivy gives you an advantage. You will probably find more Ivy grads to be in successful careers out of school, but who is to say that it is a product of the school instead of being a product of the type of kid who attends a top school.</p>
<p>I firmly believe that going to an Ivy puts one in a slightly better position for that job right out of college because it helps make the kid more marketable. There is some article on CC where a venture capitalist says that he found that Ivy grads weren't necessarily the smartest or the best ones to do business with (Paul</a> Graham%5DPaul">http://www.paulgraham.com/colleges.html)). However, he did note that many companies, and himself included, found that they gave more slack to Ivy grads. There was something about the name on their degree that make people hireing for jobs just a little more comfortable on taking a risk. I'm not saying that only Ivies are "safe bets", that defiition depends on the company. Some (Wall Street) love hireing from Ivies. Others (Boweing?) love hireing from the Big 10.</p>
<p>I think it's the same way with buying a car. It's such a huge investment, are you willing to take a risk on a brand you have never heard of versus paying a little extra for a name brand car like a Toyota? There is no way to know that the car you buy will crap out on you after 2 years or if it will last you 20 years. It's all luck of the draw.</p>
<p>Which college you attend does matter. A lot!
- It might depend on major. For example, if you are going to Med. School later, Ivy being more intense, might put you at disadvantage, since the most important criteria for acceptence to Med. School is undergrad. GPA and MCAT score. I know Duke's graduate with GPA=3.7 (probaly would be 4.0 at non-Ivy school) who had hardest time getting into Med. school and eventually ended up at very low ranked one (although ranking of Med. school does not mean a lot, since applicants are happy to get into ANY Med. School). In addition, if medical carrier is a plan, it makes sense not to spend a lot of $$ on undergrad. education.</p>
<p>
[quote]
For example, if you are going to Med. School later, Ivy being more intense, might put you at disadvantage, since the most important criteria for acceptence to Med. School is undergrad. GPA and MCAT score. I know Duke's graduate with GPA=3.7 (probaly would be 4.0 at non-Ivy school) who had hardest time getting into Med. school and eventually ended up at very low ranked one (although ranking of Med. school does not mean a lot, since applicants are happy to get into ANY Med. School).
[/quote]
What you also have to consider are the support structures at top schools. A place like Duke will have some of the best premed advising in the country (just ask some Duke premeds on CC). They can help hold a student's hand to tell him when to take certain science classes, which ones to avoid taking at the same time, when to apply to med school, help him find research positions, etc. One might not get that type of help at a public school, or might only get it if s/he is in a special program. </p>
<p>You also need to consider the fact that schools like Duke and the Ivies have rampant grade inflation. Average GPAs there are higher than at public schools. I know at Penn (from my own personal experience) you can eaisly have 5 classes every semester where you are guaranteed to get at least a B by putting forth minimal effort. Except for schools like MIT and Caltech, I don't think it is fair to say that a student with a 3.7 would see a 4.0 elsewhere.</p>
<p>A 3.7 from Duke also tells very little. From looking at the premed forum on CC I would guess that a 3.7 would be good enough to get into most every med school aside from maybe the ones with less than a 5% acceptance rate. You still don't know what the kid's MCAT scores were or what his ECs looked like or how he interviewed. All of those could have had great effects on his admissions, and they probably wouldn't have been a lot better at another school.</p>
<p>It would be interesting to see long term earnings broken down by career. In many areas I truly doubt it matters where you go to school and in others I believe it does.</p>
<p>Teachers for example will gain little economic benefit from an Ivy league education and make no more than other teachers in the same district or state.</p>
<p>Engineering is another area where I doubt IVY is of little benefit for long term earnings or advancement. engineering is not even perceived as a strength of the IVY league.</p>
<p>In some business and law fields I suspect there is a benefit to the expensive education and the contacts and doors that are opened can be very important.</p>
<p>I find the broad overall earning studies interesting but not very informative for specific career areas and of limited value.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Engineering is another area where I doubt IVY is of little benefit for long term earnings or advancement. engineering is not even perceived as a strength of the IVY league.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>While it is true that the fact that the Ivy league's strength is not in engineering does not mean that average engineering salaries are not correlated with baccalaureate origin. MIT and Stanford engineering graduates consistently earn higher starting and mid-career salaries than second tier engineering school graduates, especially in field such as computer science, electrical engineering, chemical or mechanical engineering. This is partly due to to fact that companies with the highest salaries in those fields preferentially recruit from the top colleges.</p>
<p>One might not get that type of help at a public school, or might only get it if s/he is in a special program.
-There are pre-med advisors at public schools, at least at the one my D. is in. And, yes, it is a great help! In addition, in regard to Med. carrier, if you are in combined program, there is another layer of advisors and people who closely monitor your progress with one on one progress feedbacks and special connections to Med. organisations. Ivy school caliber might be better off at programs like this if they are planning to go to Medicine. I am not aware of advantages and disadvantages for other majors, except for paying premium $$ for Ivy school education. In my example above parents paid $45,000/year for kid at Duke and could not financially help out with Med. school after paying that much for 4 years.</p>
<p>While I agree that there are a few engineering schools with national appeal Like Cal Tech, MIT, and Stanford I believe the vast majority of Engineering hiring, including many of the elite jobs, is highly regional in nature and Universities forge relationships with companies in their area.</p>
<p>The few elite engineering schools produce nowhere near enough graduates to even come close to filling the high end engineering jobs in the country. This is very different than the IVY/Wall street connection.</p>
<p>
[quote]
In addition, if medical carrier is a plan, it makes sense not to spend a lot of $$ on undergrad. education.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>There is huge variability in medical school admission rates between elite colleges and lower rated schools. </p>
<p>Even greater is the difference in MD productivity rates (the number of students who eventually matriculate in medical schools divided by the total undergraduate population of the college). Many state schools have extremely low MD productivity rates, i.e. very few students eventually get admitted to medical school relative to the size of their undergraduate student bodies. Some other schools such as Duke or JHU are pure MD factories, cranking out vast numbers of physicians. Solid advising, mentoring, physician shadowing and volunteering opportunities can make a huge difference in the chances of admission to medical school. UCLA sends around 350 students to medical school every year, or less than 1.3% of its student body. Duke sends nearly the same amount with less than a quarter of the student body of UCLA. The difference in MD productivity rates can easily exceed 10 to 1.</p>
<p>Students at elite universities with their own medical school also often have significant "legacy" advantages. Yale medical school admits an astounding 20% of its medical school students from Yale College. Harvard College is disportionately represented at Harvard Medical School etc..</p>