<p>obw ... a couple comments. For my specific comments to your points in post #1 see my comment to your other similar threads ... they will do fine. There are two main issues I have with your threads. </p>
<p>First, while the topics may be worthy of discussion your presentation of the situation is so biased in one direction it invites conflict and not discussion.</p>
<p>Second, you present a generic boggyman as the strawman. I am a Cornell grad which matriculates 2500+ kids a year ... at this point there are probably 200,000 plus alumni of Cornell. Among those 200,000 families there surely exists whatever horrible family you want to present ... there are also rapists, murderers, and drug dealers. That does not make all Cornellies like that, it does not mean typical Cornellies are like that, and it does not mean very many families are like that. You always can find an anedotal story to validate your theory ... it in no way makes it material.</p>
<p>How about presenting some data/information that shows your concern has some teeth? How wide spread is this? How many of the families doing these things are doing them for the wrong reason? Using the few bad apples to smear the many does not work for me.</p>
<p>An example that happens in CC. Each year someone brings up the unfairness of developmental admits ... there is an interesting argument around developmental admits. The reality is most schools might have 2-3 developmental admits a year which are not affecting the acceptence of any other applicants ... so while it is an interesting philosophical discussion it does not have a material affect on the overall admissions outcomes of the schools.</p>
<p>An example from my home life. I help pick the travel soccer teams in my town ... and each year about 300 kids tryout across 5 age groups and for most ages we have 3 teams. And each year 2-3 parents are royal pain in the butts after the tryouts and placements are done convinced that their son who was cut (typically scored something like 47th of 48 who tried out in the age group) has been denied their World Cup Soccer future because of us mean admin types who don't know anything about soccer. Do we have classic pushy youth sport parents among the bunch? Absolutely! But you know what ... 95% of the familes are terrific, another 4% are OK (a little cranky), and then there are the 2-3 loony toon familes. To me you're pointing at the 2-3 families and saying youth sports families are nuts. To me I'll point to the 99% and say, in general, youth sports familes are fine ... and deal with the 1% who are nuts.</p>
<p>I agree with you 110%.......provided that parents are not "over the top" with some of the things I mentioned in my opening post. I agree with setting high goals, but I wouldn't agree with the parents who is trying to turn their child into a rocket scientist at the age of 7 or taking them on tours of MIT at the age of 10.</p>
<p>I don't have statistics either, but I have observed plenty of children who are not having a sufficiently well-rounded life because of the intense time demands placed on them by parents to study, practice musical instruments, spend all summer in school, etc., in order to excel and succeed. I guess I think that compared to this, an SAT course is not a big deal.</p>
<p>But where are all these Ivy-obsessed parents who so distress you? I've certainly never met any. I absolutely agree that what you mentioned in your original post are bad things, but where is the evidence that it's such a widespread issue? That's what I'm asking, and I'd still appreciate a reply to that. As a soon-to-be Ivy Leaguer (class of '11) with a background quite different from what you've described here, I'd really love to know what it is about my classmates and our families that offends you so much that you feel compelled to post thread after thread of unflattering (and in many cases unsubstantiated) generalizations about us.</p>
<p>camelia
OBW is a troll, only looking to get a RISE out of people. He NEVER responds to specific question, because he has no evidence. ignore the fool.</p>
<p>Hunt: I noticed that you are relatively new to CC, so I am going to give you some advice: DON'T AGREE WITH ANYTHING I SAY ON CC (like your post #24). If you agree with me, there will be a vocal few (the same four or five out of the hundred who read my posts) who will insult you because what you say goes against their beliefs. If you can handle their insults, fine. But, if you are an approval-seeker, don't agree with anything I say.</p>
<p>Since you are relatively new to CC, go back and look at my posts and then look at the angry and hostile responses of the same four or five who don't agree with me.</p>
<p>Remember this: If 1000 people read a post and the same four or five are vocal against it, that means that there are many out there who see value in what you have to say.</p>
<p>cameliasinensis: First of all, congratulations on your acceptance into Dartmouth. It's an outstanding college in a gorgeous location.</p>
<p>I spent 30 years as a college counselor (now retired) and I can assure you that there are many (too many) Ivy-Obsessed parents out there who push their children too hard to excel. It is a small percentage of all parents with whom I worked over the years, but Ivy-Obsession is an ever-growing problem.
I believe that even one Ivy-Obsessed parent is one too many, because of the adverse effect they have on their child.</p>
<p>Perhaps you haven't seen many yet, but trust me, they are out there. And their effect on their children is often devastating.</p>
<p>I invite you to go to the Parent's Cafe section of CC, and read today's thread on the "Stressed-Out Students" Conference hosted by Stanford University.<br>
Or, go to this: (and then click on "Talk to Students...St. Luke's School).</p>
<p>Many students who are the "victims" of Ivy-Obsessed parents do not air their problems in public. Often, their problems are being discussed in a psychologist's office. Students who are affected by Ivy-Obsessed parents are often the ones in school who are often admired by their peers because the seem to "have their act together." They are often the students who are viewed as "perfect" by their teachers and peers. Unfortunately, many hide their true emotions and no one is aware of what they are feeling.</p>
<p>menlo: Please go to my opening post and tell CC viewers how many of those things listed (private college counselor, boarding school, tours of Ivy-type schools in sixth grade, skipping grades, etc.) you've employed. Seriously, would you please do this?</p>
<p>Oh, by the way.... Did you attend the "Stressed Out Students" Conference that was hosted by Stanford recently. If not, you can read about it in a thread that was posted today on the Parents Cafe section of CC. </p>
<p>LIFE is stressful, some will fare better than others. I wish that I would have had more people in my life "stressing" the formal and informal lessions in life, so that I would have made fewer mistakes and suffered fewer headaches and heartaches. It hasn't killed me, it's made me stronger in some repects but many kids today overall are spoiled and feel entitled. They lack proper coping skills. I'm not so much against parents pushing their kids if they temper it with love and all the other positive ingredients of life. Every individual is going to have a different methodology and it isn't a perfect and exact science. If kids can't hack some things now, what are they going to do later when other hardships come their way? The headlines are full of those who couldn't cope. I'm not trying to be harsh or unsympathetic, but there are simply some people that no matter what, the stresses of life force them to unravel. If college planning and admissions become too unbearable, heaven forbid they have to start raising a family, paying bills, be self sufficient, become ill, lose a loved one, etc, etc. Those everyday life challenges are far more complex and difficult to navigate compared to managing college choices.</p>
<p>Hunt:
Welcome to CC. I am sure you are an intelligent person and can form your own opinions. But, just for the sake of discussion, lets pretend you need a little "educating", like the OP believes is required of all posters. Click on the OP's name (in blue) and see if you can find ANY thread he has started that is about anything other than his obsession with the Ivys, the fact that any kid who strives to go to an Ivy, any Ivy, must have been brainwashed by an overly controlling, obsessive, probably wealthy parent and as a consequence has every mental health problem in the book. Read a few of the threads and see if you notice this phrase
[quote]
I spent 30 years as a college counselor (now retired) and I can assure you that there are many (too many) Ivy-Obsessed parents out there who push their children too hard to excel.
[/quote]
or a slight variation thereof posted at least once in the thread. See if you notice posters asking the OP for suggestions of other schools he might suggest for posters, and look hard for a cogent response. Then count how many times questions are answered with questions, usually requiring a confession to the question "which of these bad, bad, bad onerous things I am convinced parents to to mess up their kid did you do?" See if you can find answers to questions posted to him. There are a few-- go play "where's Waldo" and see if you can find them. Then take a look at almost any thread anywhere on CC and notice that threads have many, many, many more people reading them than posting on them (sometimes the ratios are 70:1 of views to posts). Wait, don't forget to assume that EVERY SINGLE ONE of the people who reads these threads is in absolute full and total agreement with the OP, and that only the few who are silly enough to post and try to get the OP to open his eyes a bit (and then ultimately become annoyed and frustrated by the OP's responses) are the only people who may disagree with or be annoyed by these repetitious threads with the same redundant agenda. Be sure to read several of the threads in their entirety. Some of them get pretty funny, so I suspect that many of the "lurkers" reading these posts are doing so purely for the entertainment value. Don't dforget to assume that any poster who questions the OP's position is an "Ivy Obsessed" person in denial (an Ivy-o-holic??)</p>
<p>I again welcome you to CC and hope that you will find many of the other threads and many of the other posters to be of value and assistance to you.</p>
<p>Old but dense,
No, I am NOT going to answer your "how many of these terrible things did you do to your poor children" questions . You are not longer a teacher[ if you ever were one] giving others directions or instructions. Your question all lead in one direction- trying to justify YOUR OBSESSION that there are hoards of evil, pushy parents on this website who can think only of getting their children into Ivy's. It' your fantasy and your obsession.</p>
<p>By the way, did you notice on that "stressed out kids" thread in the parents section that there are (at the current time) 87 views and ZERO, count'em ZERO posts on the thread. So I guess that means that all 87 of the views (and I was one of them) were in total agreement with everything said, so there was nothing more to be said on the subject. Hence the lack of comments. </p>
<p>For the UMPTEENTH time, no one is disagreeing with the fact that students and parents alike are under a lot of pressure (some, but not all of which is related to the challenges of the college process). But the helpful, healthy thing to do would be to make suggestions as to how to help students, not just play the shame and blame game with the parents. It is getting old... older than the OP.</p>
<p>Where I live, there aren't so many Ivy-hungry parents. There are more parents who fit the "I just put in a pool and bought very expensive cars but I'll be d****d if I pay more than in-state tuition for my kid's college" profile.</p>
<p>madville: I'm not referring to adolescents who are dealing with NORMAL parents who simply encourage their children to set high (but achievable) goals and do their best. I'm referring to "over the top" parents who are pushing their children way too hard to OVERACHIEVE, and causing them to feel worthless if they do meet their parental expectations. </p>
<p>Think about this......there are parents who are paying private college counselors up to $30,000 so their children can have a counselor who knows "insider secrets" that will give them an edge in getting into an elite college. If they are so Ivy-Obsessed that they will do that, think about what kind of day-to-day pressure to achieve that their children are under. Adolescence is tough enough...."over the top" parents don't help matters.</p>
<p>Again, it is a small group of parents who are like this, but clearly this group of parents exists. And, due to the makeup of the viewership on CC, many on CC downplay this problem, completely deny that it exists, or worst of all, claim that such parenting is actually good for the adolescent.</p>
<p>jym: With the conclusion of another school year, College Confidential will be drawing many new viewers who have not seen my posts in the past, especially members of the Class of 2008 and their parents. So, even though my posts may be old news to you, I continue to post them so I can (hopefully) make some students and parents think about the points I'm trying to make.</p>
<p>Even though you and about four others (I think of you as the "vocal few") like to bash me and call me names like troll and fool, there are many others (nearly 1000) who have an opportunity to view my posts. So, I continue to make my points in order to have a positive impact on some students and parents.</p>
<p>Something for all parents of Members of the Class of 2008 to think about (based on my 30 years of experience): If you are overemphasizing the importance of getting into an elite college, and making your teen believe that anything "less than elite" is "second best," think of how your teen will feel going off to one of those "second best" schools in September if he/she doesn't get admitted to an elite college.</p>
<p>Be sure to keep an open mind as you assist your teen with the college process. Don't focus too narrowly on the elite colleges, and never "put down" colleges that don't fall into the "elite" category. If your teen ends up attending a "Plan B" school, you don't want him to feel as though he/she has failed.</p>
<p>I must respectfully disagree, obw. First of all, you have made that very same claim
[quote]
With the conclusion of another school year, College Confidential will be drawing many new viewers who have not seen my posts in the past, especially members of the Class of 2008 and their parents.
[/quote]
in many of your threads, so this is not "new news", even to those relatively new posters. And if you are trying to address the audience of "Ivy obsessed" parents, then for crikey's sake, those parents and kids of the class of 2008 are not likely to "just be starting their search" and joining CC now. For cryin' out loud - they would have joined CC quite a while ago in their quest for the "insider secrets" (as you say) to those prized top spots.</p>
<p>Again, you seem to believe that the multitude of viewers to these threads of yours are being educated by you. Allow for another difference of opinion, as it unfortunately comes cross as comical, not educational. As we have been trying to say to you, in the hopes that maybe, just maybe you will listen rather than preach, is that you may, under all the condescention, have something helpful to say to people whe are turning up the pressure too much. Unfortunately the message is lost in the delivery. Just my opinion, FWIW to you.</p>