I think the “stress” factor is so overlooked - not just by student but by parent.
I read notes - I can pay $20K. Well, what if you lost your job or got furloughed or your bonus was taken away? What if the markets fell and you panicked because your 401K went down 30%, etc.
What happens if tuition costs go up 5% next year but your aid doesn’t?
The amount of stress on parents today - especially those who are stretching themselves to make this happen.
My friend came to Syracuse - her parents sold their house and moved into a trailer. Two years later, out of money, she transferred to U of Montana.
Yes, these are individual decisions and there are valid points on all side. But there’s not just debt and future loan payments at play - there’s also the stress that comes with any “hiccup” during life in the next four years - on top of the stress the parents will already have.
Is that cost worth it? Not for me to answer.
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Others have mentioned it, but I thought it worth reiterating that the Ivies will match each other on need based aid. It’s standard practice at those schools, not really a negotiation as some might have experienced with non-Ivies. So I’d definitely let them know of competing offers that are better. And get clarity that they’ll apply the “better” methodology for all 4 years.
This isn’t an easy decision, but I’d factor in the flexibility the Ivies would provide for exploring interests, the different social life and connections, and then the various ways those schools use their wealth to support students. Having said that, your son wouldn’t be the first to be accepted to an Ivy and accept a great offer at a non-Ivy. Things work out pretty well for kids in that club too.
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Does anyone know what the typical outcomes for these majors are at CPY (Ivy) vs Pitt? Typical first job and research opportunities? Relative pay of first job? Better opportunities to get into top PhD programs?
Pitt is a Top 60ish overall university with strength in the sciences. It isn’t a typical free school ranked in the 150s.
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Earlier it was asked how biology majors from Ivy League schools compare to state school grads.
My D graduated from a very strong state school with a degree in biology. She graduated with an impressive resume which included several publications. Her peers within the biology dept graduated with equally impressive accomplishments.
Following graduation she accepted a gap year position that required a 6 week orientation where they stayed in dorms. Her roommate (and now close friend) was a biology grad from Yale.
They landed in the same place following graduation.
If this student is forced to pay back large loans from Yale, there will be no safety net available from his family should he need financial assistance after graduation. That would scare me.
My daughter turned down 2 research assistant type opportunities following graduation. The pay was based on experience (her experience was limited to college) and she was offered a salary in the mid 40’s. Some of these jobs here would likely come in lower, while some might be a little higher (not much higher).
She also interviewed for a job across the country working at one of the top schools in the state (research assistant). The salary was $37,000.
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But then let’s not forget that in situations involving “free rides”, a large portion will be merit aid, especially if the kid is OOS. So if we are worried about stress, we also need to consider the conditions of the scholarships. Is it guaranteed for all 4 years, or are there conditions/qualifications to maintain it each year? What if there is a kid or family situation that causes a drop in GPA that results in a loss of the scholarship? How affordable is the school then? State schools are not known to be generous providers of safety nets. This is also stress.
If we are assuming “worst cases” (kid graduates into a low pay field in a high COA region, family/kid are unable to chisel down the debt while he/she is in school through jobs and additional expense savings so that a roughly $600/month payment is a real stretch), then we also need to weigh the probability of losing the scholarship(s) and the resulting consequences. When aid is pure FA, changes in family economic circumstances should result in even more aid. The Ivies are very good at providing safety nets for changes in circumstances. Yale definitely is. Just saying, when we look at downsides of one side of an equation, we also need to look at downsides of the alternative. Equally, we need to look at competing upsides. If you are risk adverse, then the comparison of downsides will carry more weight and vice versa.
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My daughter was offered full tuition to Pitt (she accepted another offer). I do not recall seeing anything about GPA in the award letter.
“scholarship recipients must maintain a 3.00 cumulative grade point average (GPA) to remain scholarship eligible.”
https://financialaid.pitt.edu/types-of-aid/scholarships/scholarship-renewal-guidelines/
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AFAIK, Yale undergrads get research experience at Yale; those who are into research for its own sake get into funded PHDs (there’s a sort of pipeline to various top programs.) For a researcher, the norm is to go straight to the PHD, the goal being to get into one that’s high-ranked and well-funded, with a fellowship, etc. Biology is tough because there’s an oversupply of them. Personally I wouldn’t recommend majoring in biology anywhere (Pitt or Yale).
I’d say the biggest difference with Pitt is that they’re not strapped for cash (relatively speaking) and at times it seems their resources are limitless.
https://admissions.yale.edu/undergraduate-research
Wrt: what if you lose your job and can’t afford the loan (mentioned upthread)? Well, problem solved. If income falls below a certain threshold, and certainly if you lose your job, HYP take care of everything. The student I mentioned upthread (who did research in physics and political science, both at a high level) paid a whopping $234 one year due to a dip in father’s income, meaning Yale paid for his plane tickets and books in addition to tuition, room, and board, and his guaranteed on-campus job (research in a lab) paid for his personal expenses. His family would have paid more for having him stay at home.
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Ok thanks. It seems I forgot, but it’s been a few years.
Are you saying that if this student can’t afford to pay back $60,000 in loans because his salary is too low, Yale will help pay back the money after graduation?
Yale meets full need (very generously) so I would think it would provide greater aid if a parent lost a job during the 4 years.
It’s hard to grasp this type of discussion. Shouldn’t this assessment have happened when you prepared a list for applications? We ran EFC of every school, so we knew what to expect if my son got in. Why do people let the kids apply to their dream schools and only get extremely disappointed to learn they cannot afford? If the family can only afford certain range of payment, then target for those relevant schools in the beginning. There is no need to donate the application fees to Yale and Columbia. Or is this considered an opportunity just for the kids to prove themselves with admissions at those top schools then put them on walls?
Great info on potential outcomes! Was your kid’s “very strong state school” comparable to Pitt or one of the Public Ivy types? Does a tippy top Pitt grad have similar outcomes to an average Ivy grad? Aren’t loan repayments delayed while in grad school?
If OP is sleepless due to the $15k of potential loans per year and kiddo isn’t heavily leaning to an Ivy, the decision is made. If kiddo really wants to test his chops at the Ivy the outcomes should be sufficient to pay back the loans. We’re not talking about for getting loans at a for profit college.
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Yes my D’s state school was of the type you mention. I will not deny or discount that.
She interviewed for room and board at Pitt (didn’t get it) and had the opportunity to speak with students who turned down Ivy League schools, as well as professors in biology and physics.
Personally, I loved Pitt. I loved everything about it and had no doubt she (and others) would have had outstanding opportunities within the major. I think students attending Pitt on a full ride absolutely excel. This is a middle class family. Middle class families in my neighborhood (we have a mix) have kids who attend state schools and do very well.
Loans are put on hold during grad school, but interest still accrues.
It would bother me if my kid had to pay back $60,000 without my help, knowing that a full ride was turned down. It would be different if this was the only way to attend college.
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Fair point - my daughter will go to C of Charleston. She had better offers - is in at W &L (no $) but even though she has better offers/schools, Charleston seems to be the right fit.
If she doesn’t keep a 3.0, she loses $16K. My son is at Bama. If he doesn’t keep a 3.0, he loses 28.5K. So you are correct.
American is or was a 3.2…which is almost like saying - we want it to be a one year scholarship.
No, upthread the question was: what if you(parent) lose your job or earn less? Hence my reply. If a parent loses their job or earn less, the FA picks up.
Yale doesn’t step in if a graduate loses their job down the line.
Yale does offer some sort of “safety net” through its connections and alumni/mentors.
For instance, there’s a “clubhouse” (place/restaurant/hotel/gym, 22 stories) just for Yale grads in NYC, where they can have a business lunch and discuss venture investments, or make friends with fellow swimmers who may support x or z. Alumni may invite promising current students there to discuss their future. This type of thing.
It’s truly another world compared to most colleges.
(But it’s up to the student to seize the opportunity).
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Why my daughter didn’t apply to Cornell, Gtown or NYU.
We applied to schools were aid wasn’t likely - but was possible - Rice, Emory, William and Mary, Washington & Lee, etc.
Got rejected at the first, WL at the next two and in at W&L - but an alternate for a full tuition scholarship.
So unless W&L comes through, College of Charleston here she comes. I can pay the $81K for W&L but choose not to.
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I trust everything you say and enjoy reading your posts. You bring a wealth of information.
This is not an easy decision to make.
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Seems the OP had budgeted Yale, but then the student was surprised with free rides at a few schools. Now OP is wondering if Yale is worth it when there is a free school now in play, unexpectedly.
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I think the issue is whether Yale is worth it if he has to pay back large loans by himself on what might be a low salary, versus a full ride to Pitt.
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They ran the NPC and said the amount was OK. The parent still says the amount is OK but they’ll take a loan for part of it. They’re not turning it down - if the son hadn’t had the full ride, he’d be going to Yale. So it’s not that he applied with the family not willing to pay, but rather having the unexpected bonus of a full ride at a good university and having to decide between that and the opportunity of an Ivy League education.
It’s hard to know whether it’s “worth it” when one option is “free”, hence the dilemma!
Note that I hope the family did send their Profile for review + Penn offer since I think Yale would match or “review” using “professional judgement” to make it less, thus decreasing costs.
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