Ivy or Free Ride

College Search & Selection
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He isn’t. (summarizing posts about 100 posts upthread :p)
He’s interested in Biology (:frowning: ), not premed, and also in fields Pitt isn’t as good at as medical/biology related subjects, such as foreign languages, political science, environmental science, math, and fashion…
Not that Pitt is bad for those fields.… but to give a concrete example I know a kid who was in that exact situation, chose Yale after much trepidation, thought he’d major in Math and Economics (interested in Music too…), ended up majoring in Physics and Political Science, interned with the Innocence Project (among others, and all with a stipend+R&B taken care of) and conducted data-driven research about the death penalty that’s now considered as part of cases to abolish it. Pitt wouldn’t have had the means to pay for his internships that led to the change in direction and I’m not sure they’d have had the resources or pull to help with his project that is now, literally, going to save lives. And there are countless such examples.

OP’s son also wants to explore lots of subjects, which is why Columbia appealed to him as per his parent; the family said they were ok with the net price but they naturally worry about the debt. I’d worry about the debt if it were just for a biology major but the tidbits we get from his parent make him sound like a kid who could really branch out and use the resources an Ivy would provide.
All in all he sounds like a kid who’d really know how to take advantage of that opportunity.

I know it doesn’t really answer “Is the investment worth it?”

@sparkleybarkley :
Beside asking for a review, bringing up any change between 2019 and 2020 that may apply and any circumstances you might not have fully explained on the CSS Profile that would show you don’t have all that cash on hand (ie., medical bills, hours cut due to covid, usual supplemental income that disappeared, unexpected/pandemic-related costs such as doubling the costs of internet subscription due to homeschooling…), providing the Penn FA package, and asking for professional judgement, hoping for Yale to revise their estimate…
are there ways for you to reduce the debt?
For instance, typically, Yale, Penn and Columbia will include everything in the package, including expenses beyond tuition, room, and board: Can some of those be reduced, ie., to get to campus, could he drive or take a bus rather than fly, or fly on the red eye, in order to reduce the “transportation” line item; could he choose a “cheaper” meal plan; could he rent textbooks or borrow from the library or use the library reserves rather than buy them; could he be frugal with his personal expenses, even if it’d mean missing out on meals out with friends or no Fall Break trip…? Would he be able to find a job and work part-time for now, moving to as close to full time as possible this summer in order to close the gap?

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142

THIS: If you were prepared for the costs and would have paid happily if he had not gotten free rides, AND he really thinks he fits best at (one of the ivies), then go there. The networking and the opportunities at schools of that caliber with the high ratio of similarly intellectual students counts for a lot, in my estimation–especially as he is unsure of his career. It is hard for me to advocate against the top schools when they come at a price that at some point you were prepared to pay.

My answer would be different if you had no way to pay and upfront the budget was clear that these would not be options unless they came in below X amount.

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143

I am not questioning whether or not the investment is worth it. IMO it is, if there is money to pay for it and it’s the student’s top choice.

My question is this: Does this family have an extra $700 +/- at the end of each month…right now…to pay off this loan…for many years to come?

It’s none of my business, but that would be my focus. And we don’t know if there are younger siblings who will eventually go to college.

Fwiw- attending a state school that has grad students does not mean undergrads will have trouble finding research positions. That isn’t true at all, and really depends on the school and the students who attend.

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144

I find it hard to believe that this family hasn’t saved for college at all. This is an outstanding young man, to receive such acceptances. I believe education and knowledge must be part of the parents’ values. I also think there is one younger child.

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This is a toughie.

4 years ago at CC, we faced a similar decision with my youngest kid…go into an interesting level of debt (i.e. my debt) for Cornell or attend the ill-fitting state university (my kid was one who wouldn’t apply to many schools so we had few choices).

We went with the state university and I would have said – after Year 1 – that we made the wrong decision…he floundered in the huge university system and – while not a frat guy - fell into the party atmosphere there…lost his natural love of learning…it was looking pretty dim (and, yes, I realize the same thing could have happened at Cornell but that’s not how you think at 3 a.m.).

But now we have a kid graduating this May with a great job (even i’m envious), zero debt, and a resilient optimistic attitude that was honed in a tough situation. I’m happy with the decision made and so is he…but this is one of those things where you may second-guess no matter what direction you choose.

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146

Why is it hard to believe? $1.6 Trillion in school debt in the US. Not everyone can save the amounts necessary. It doesn’t mean they don’t value education.

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147

Probably none to little of the $1.6 trillion came from Ivy undergrad education.

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Plenty of good points here, but I just had to point out the UC Berkeley actually has a well-known “UC in DC” program that sends students to intern in DC for a semester while taking classes at the Washington Center (https://ucdc.berkeley.edu/berkeleys-ucdc-program/ – actually open to all UC campuses). So it’s not just Harvard that has figured out a pipeline to get their students in the door with Hill lawmakers!

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149

What’s your point? OP is willing to take on debt for an Ivy so it does happen. Lots of discussions on CC every year start with “Is T20 xyz worth $300k in debt”.

I doubt when OP’s son was born he said I won’t bother saving…he’ll go to an Ivy.

I think CC attracts a different demographic and sometimes it shows. The vast majority don’t have disposable incomes to save millions for retirement and another million for private colleges for all their kids…or even fractions of those amounts.

Good luck to the OP and his son.

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150

Don’t forget the 20K+ per year for a private school education before college.

Some people have the money, no doubt, but the vast majority… vast, vast majority… do not, and for many of those 60K in debt is a big deal.

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151

Somewhat off topic but while UCDC has a great location, housing, etc, they don’t actually place you in the internship (they do maintain lists of where you can apply to, but AFAIK no spots are reserved for the UCDC students). S did this last summer (unfortunately remote due to COVID) and had an amazing internship at a top think tank, but it was all on him to secure in a competitive process. He found that while he had just applied for the position online (and competed with hundreds of others to land it), many of his fellow interns (almost all from top private schools) appeared to have got their jobs through connections (eg meeting someone at a seminar or being introduced directly by their professor).

That leaves me with mixed feelings, it has been good for him to succeed in these competitive environments, but if he hadn’t done so then it would have been disappointing to lose out to less qualified candidates.

I think that’s the key question about what you would potentially find harder by not picking somewhere like Yale, opportunities for easier access to “elite society-defining jobs” as another thread put it. Is that what you are looking for after college? And can you afford to go after those jobs (which may be low paid initially) with $60K in debt.

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152

Contrary to popular perception Ivy schools usually go out of their way to eliminate student debt and as a result have probably the lowest student debt despite their high price. I think this is largely due to a combination of generous FA and many opportunities of good paying internships and jobs.

Since we are talking about money here may I speculate that vast majority of the CCers here are not among the top 1% of the income group. And yet a lot of us pretend to know what effect an $80K debt would have on a top 1% highest achieving perhaps future earning students----and yes, getting into Yale and its peer schools is among top 1% in the age group. IMHO, to have 99%ers evaluate financial picture of a possible future top 1% earners can be futile exercise.

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Huh? Very few Ivy grads are top 1% earners.

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154

The odds of this student graduating and obtaining a job where he will be among the top 1% are slim. Graduating from an Ivy League school at the age of 22 does not mean you will be at the top of the pay scale.

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155

I mean among the age group, not at 22 years old.

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Average salary for an Ivy grad mid career is only about $160k. I wouldn’t bet on a 1% income.

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157

In my humble opinion, FREE RIDE ALL DAY. Mark Cuban is a billionaire and did not go to a prestigious school, and the greater majority of well to do Americans also did not graduate from prestigious schools. I know it’s so hard when the name and education holds a lot of value, but nothing is more valuable than time and financial freedom. At the end of the day, it is the individual who paves their path towards success, a degree does not define or guarantee success.

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158

We have an older son who is graduating from a state school with about half the debt. Totally different kid. We are a middle income family. We can only contribute so much. Without going into our particular life finances we had a set amount we could help each kid. So we can shell out a certain amount and pay any interest on any loans he takes out. The rest will be his debt. I didn’t go to college and neither did their dad. So we do the best we can but we will help because this kid is an amazing hard worker and we know he is worth the risk. Now we are visiting Pitt this weekend so that he can make his choice and will support him 100%. I do thank everyone on here for their opinions though. This discussion was very helpful.

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159

Good luck. I think your last post nailed it…there’s always limitations but we all just want to help our kids be better than us and are willing to do as much as we possibly can…no matter what our financial situation dictates. At the end of the day we just do the best we can. Best wishes.

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160

If you didn’t go to college, your kid is first-gen. It means he’s part of the group that’ll especially be helped by an Ivy League education (ie., not just a great education, but a life changing education).

Visting Pitt shouldn’t keep you from sending the financial review request to Yale - highlight any new circumstance, any change between 2019 and 2020, any expense that they may not have taken into account - and ask for “professional judgement”. Use that term. Also include Penn’s offer. Don’t make a final decision till you hear back and review ways to shrink the debt.

Enjoy your visit at Pitt - I don’t know if you could get a special tour with an honors student? If they let you visit the historical rooms, the Cathedral of Learning is cool (Commons Room is impressive and looking at the “nationality rooms” is fun, although I’m not sure whether they’re in any way culturally authentic). It’ll be mild and rainy (sunny is always better, but at least it won’t be cold :stuck_out_tongue: )

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