Ivy Rigor

Parents Forum
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<p>To go back to the original topic, of the rigor of the Ivies: As with most universities, including the Ivies, the rigor depends considerably on the specific set of courses that the student selects, and not just the major. </p>

<p>In a typical large, public research university (LPRU), first-year students who are taking math will often be distributed over 7 to 10 courses of different levels. At the Ivies, I would estimate the the students are distributed over 5 or 6 different levels in math, to start. Even Caltech has multiple math levels for first-year students (including an honors course that covers Galois theory). </p>

<p>My university offers about 6,000 courses, giving an extremely large number of possible routes to a degree, of varying levels of difficulty. I doubt that even the “slacker” path through an Ivy is as easy as the path taken by the bottom 30% or so of students at a typical LPRU. At the high end of difficulty, particularly with the choice of large numbers of honors and graduate-level courses at the LPRU (and at the Ivy, too), the experiences are probably more closely comparable, although I would have to say that I suspect that the highest-level Ivy course selections would be more challenging. </p>

<p>When posters remark on this forum that students would not be admitted unless they could do “the work,” I don’t think this is an accurate representation of the college experience. The level of difficulty varies a lot with course selection at the Ivies, as at the LPRU’s. One could talk about AP Calc in terms of “the work,” but even there the variation in classes in different high schools is fairly wide. To talk about all of the possible choices at universities as “the work” tends to obscure the fact that there are many different levels that could be selected by the student. </p>

<p>The service academies come closest to having “the work” of all of the colleges/universities with which I am familiar. Caltech and some of the other universities that require a common core curriculum might also come close to having “the work.” The service academies have associated preparatory schools, with one-year programs to prepare applicants they would like to admit, but who are not yet prepared by academic background to handle the first-year academic courses. I think this is a good approach, although it may be hard on the students who wind up at MAPS, NAPS, . . . Caltech just doesn’t admit the students. This has the advantage of reflecting the actual demands of Caltech in an honest, upfront way. However, if I ran Caltech, I’d offer CAPS, too, as an alternative–maybe even a two-year or three-year program. (Also, Stanford could have SAPS! and Yale could have YAPS!)</p>

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<p>Going back to the first post of this thread, I think there is a difference between reporting cheating and ignoring cheating. There are lots of cheating in major colleges in California but people don’t talk about them like the Harvard case.</p>

<p>[The</a> Berkeley Science Review UC: University of Cheating The Berkeley Science Review](<a href=“http://sciencereview.berkeley.edu/uc-university-of-cheating/]The”>http://sciencereview.berkeley.edu/uc-university-of-cheating/)</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-california-berkeley/939665-berkeley-computer-science-cheating-curve.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-california-berkeley/939665-berkeley-computer-science-cheating-curve.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>[UCLA</a> Cheating Dispute](<a href=“http://mklau.tripod.com/ucla.html]UCLA”>UCLA Cheating Dispute)</p>

<p>[The</a> Daily Bruin :: UCLA assistant professor Rick Grannis? research suggests cheating, plagiarism is an epidemic](<a href=“http://www.dailybruin.com/index.php/article/2011/04/ucla_assistant_professor_rick_grannis_research_suggests_cheating_plagiarism_is_an_epidemic]The”>http://www.dailybruin.com/index.php/article/2011/04/ucla_assistant_professor_rick_grannis_research_suggests_cheating_plagiarism_is_an_epidemic)</p>

<p>[UCLA</a> Rejects 52 MBA Applicants | Poets and Quants](<a href=“http://poetsandquants.com/2012/02/01/ucla-rejects-12-mba-applicants-for-plagiarism/]UCLA”>http://poetsandquants.com/2012/02/01/ucla-rejects-12-mba-applicants-for-plagiarism/)</p>

<p>[“UCSD</a> Has Major Cheating Problem, Study Finds” by News Ticker | San Diego Reader](<a href=“http://www.sandiegoreader.com/weblogs/news-ticker/2011/nov/10/ucsd-has-major-cheating-problem-study-finds/]"UCSD”>UCSD Has Major Cheating Problem, Study Finds | San Diego Reader)</p>

<p>[UCSD</a> study: Cheating widespread in physics classes | UTSanDiego.com](<a href=“http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2011/nov/11/ucsd-study-cheating-widespread-among-physics-stude/]UCSD”>http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2011/nov/11/ucsd-study-cheating-widespread-among-physics-stude/)</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.usc.edu/student-affairs/dt/V129/N48/02-academic.48c.html[/url]”>http://www.usc.edu/student-affairs/dt/V129/N48/02-academic.48c.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>I will also throw in the comment that I think that at least part of the grade inflation in non-STEM areas reflects actual improvement in the quality of the work. I wrote term papers in the era of manual typewriters (or if one was really lucky, electric typewriters) and “corasable” bond–and a lot of partially typed sheets thrown out, regardless. Gaining access to most sources required working at the library, walking through the stacks, lugging piles of books/journals to a table, and taking notes by hand. Some historical references or literary allusions were essentially impossible to resolve, within the time-frame allowed.</p>

<p>The comparative ease of producing a paper now means that more time can go into thought about the topic. Rearranging the argument late in the process is very easy. Notes can be readily incorporated into the work. Citations are easier to handle. It’s easy to double-check references. Google means that historical references and literary allusions can be tracked down. In some parts of the country, the level of sophistication of the top students has also increased–since it used to be far below the East Coast boarding school standard. It may still be below it, but not by much.</p>

<p>It wouldn’t surprise me at all if the papers are just generally better, these days.</p>

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<p>"Just that his real legacy is more in the marketing/sales/business sector…not an area which gives one serious tech cred among the hardcore CS folks I’ve met/worked with. "</p>

<p>There are 10s of millions of people who do programming today. His legacy is that a whole lot of them are able to do it because Windows came about and replaced crappy character based unix interface. It revolutionized IT programming and broke it away from computer science. People no longer needed to study hard core computer science to do IT work.</p>

<p>He also gave away 30 or 40 billion dollars. So who gives a rodent’s behind what the unix guys are smirking about or rolling on the floor doing? What have they ever done to benefit humanity?</p>

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I’m sure none of them would want to change places with poor maligned Mr. Gates and his $59B.</p>

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<p>So I’ve heard, but I don’t believe that was the case when I was there, since all I had to recommend me was my gpa: I had no extracurricular activities in college whatsoever.</p>

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<p>DonnaL is correct as to our college, at least at that time. Phi Beta Kappa was straight GPA.</p>

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<p>While being a millionaire is nice, that’s not the raison d’etre of most hardcore folks…including engineering/CS folks. They’re doing it for the love of what they do…including tech. The rest is secondary. </p>

<p>If anything, most feel using one’s socio-economic status as a bragging point is proof positive one doesn’t get them or their mindset at all. They also tend to disdain student interns/workers and fresh employees with the wealth == greatest mindset. One derisively termed them “money-sucking scum”…and he was a multi-millionaire who really worked for it…but preferred the focus be put on his small part in bringing about technological innovations/achievements. </p>

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<p>Keep in mind that Apple introduced the first commercially available Windowing interface that their fans argue with some fair justification was heavily copied by Microsoft starting in the late '80s/early '90s. It’s been a long open secret in the computer tech world and the source of many industry-insider jokes. </p>

<p>Granted, Apple was equally disdained by the hardcore CS folks back then as well…especially due to serious issues with OS design which lead to the infamous frequent system crashes…especially in Mac OS Systems 7-9. Similar issues also plagued Windows 95, NT 3.1/3.51/4 as I remembered all too well. </p>

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<p>Actually, most of them wouldn’t want to exchange places with him. Especially considering they believe that wealth was tainted by his legal strongarming and monopolistic actions which they felt the US Justice Department chose to ignore/dismiss for politically expedient reasons. </p>

<p>Some of their attitudes in this regard are similar to why some friends who work in the Real Estate field do not appreciate being compared with Donald Trump or to some extent, finance friends with Nick Leeson of Barings Bank fame in the mid-'90s. </p>

<p>As for Gates’ charitable works…much of that started in the midst of the Antitrust investigations of the late '90s/early '00s so it is as much an attempt to garner excellent corporate/personal PR as it was for good causes. In short, while those works have had a positive effect on the world…let’s not ignore that Gates and Microsoft had some highly self-serving motives for doing so as well.</p>

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<p>cobrat, we’re not talking about hardcore rigorous engineering at Ivies. What we’re talking about is the fact that you can still want to do engineering at Ivies because the rigor is in getting a better education outside of engineering at those schools. Sure if you are 100% techie go to MIT or CMU, but if you want to end up in a career that involves more interface with regular folks a less technical education may serve you better. Mathson is 100% engineer - if his choices had been Harvard or WPI, I’d have lobbied for Harvard. But those weren’t his choices.</p>

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But they deflated the honors a few years ago by limiting them to certain percentages of the class–less than at Harvard and Princeton.</p>

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<p>“As for Gates’ charitable works…much of that started in the midst of the Antitrust investigations of the late '90s/early '00s so it is as much an attempt to garner excellent corporate/personal PR as it was for good causes. In short, while those works have had a positive effect on the world…let’s not ignore that Gates and Microsoft had some highly self-serving motives for doing so as well.”</p>

<p>Yep, if you believe that I own the golden gate bridge and it is up for sale for a $1. </p>

<p>It is not a few million dollars here and there to show that he is a good guy. We are talking about a foundation currently contributing over $2 billion annually in grants to various causes (most charitable foundations are not even worth 2 billion). Granted it also got a big chunk of money from Warren Buffett but Gates’ vision was found worthy enough to merit Buffett’s fortune.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.gatesfoundation.org/annualreport/2010/Documents/2010-annual-report-ceo-letter-english.pdf[/url]”>http://www.gatesfoundation.org/annualreport/2010/Documents/2010-annual-report-ceo-letter-english.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Bottomline - Apple had the interface but nobody cared to program in it and they were not being used as frontends to anything by businesses. Windows got there eventually and broke the monochrome and monotony at businesses.</p>

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<p>I have done IT system administration work for small organizations alongside my primary job of writing software. Microsoft Windows was much more difficult to manage than Unix and Linux, because many more things were able to be automated with the latter (in contrast to the extensive manual GUI process needed to install or configure a new Microsoft Windows computer).</p>

<p>Microsoft Windows also did not have a clean separation of system configuration, application configuration, and user configuration. It also encouraged users to do routine work as administrator all the time, increasing vulnerability to security problems.</p>

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<p>Okay, but If you ask a student whether they’d rather end up with a 3.77 from Yale and no cum laude designation or a 3.6 from Princeton with honors, I bet they’d prefer the higher gpa on their resume. I’m just guessing what the gpa might be at the 30th percentile mark at Princeton with its grade deflation policy based on the mean and median gpa others have posted (about 3.2 and 3.4, respectively).</p>

<p>Btw, Princeton does not have Latin honors, only departmental. Each department may have a different formula but it is not straight gpa (senior thesis, departmental courses are weighed more heavily, etc.)</p>

<p>And all this relates to the OP because course difficulty and depth is, and should be, the major measure of rigor, but often people’s perception is shaped by the grading curve. Hypothetically, Yale’s intro Econ course may require more work and have more depth than Princeton’s, but if the latter’s deflation policy means a lot fewer students are going to get As, it may be perceived as more rigorous. </p>

<p>In general, I would posit that professors at any college tend to develop their courses to adapt to the mean–they will adjust the content, work load and difficulty of exams to ensure that a majority of their students do reasonably well in their course. The consequences of failing too many students could hurt their careers. So to suggest there is no difference in rigor between colleges that have a high percentage of excellent students and those that mostly take in average or just good students, is disingenuous, IMO.</p>

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<p>This may be true but since all students have access to the same technological advances, shouldn’t grades reflect the quality in context?</p>

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<p>Imo, level of writing still has a lot to do with the inividual student. The opportunity for better depth and breadth is defintely here, but the kid needs to pull it together. It would be interesting to have long-term profs comment, those who assign lots of writing. You might be surprised, but I don’t see (in my world, not focused on employers such as I-Banking,) a huge difference between a 3.77 and a 3.6, in the elite context.</p>

<p>I know I hit a sore spot when we leave the “elites.” But, what if you compare a 3.77 from some school we can agree is not rigorous to, say, that 3.6 at P?</p>

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<p>Re post #474: Wildwood11, I suspect that the expectations have not have time to adjust to the increase in quality. Also, as the “standards” are increased, at some point I suspect that the assessment of the relative merit of different papers is probably no longer reproducible from reader to reader (all professors).</p>

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<p>UCB - I understand networking people did not like Windows/Windows NT. It only got good recently.</p>

<p>Around 1994, Oracle forms/reports were created to allow for windows GUI development. I have programmed a bit in 3.1 sql forms etc which were really hard to work with since you had to be precise about where the pixel was and keep readjusting your screen. When the windows version was developed, one pretty much needed to understand the database commands and the web GUI part was not that hard learn. </p>

<p>So development of screens for forms and reports became a breeze and it is unbelievable how many people who did not know a single programming language moved into these development roles effortlessly. I moved in from being an engineer into IT around 96 and I credit Windows GUI for it.</p>

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<p>Correction: I meant 70th percentile in post 473, as that is what is being compared with Yale’s honor’s designation–i.e. the top 30% are awarded cum laude or higher which required a minimum gpa of 3.78 last year.</p>

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<p>I found the Microsoft Windows GUI to be very annoying to use (and not very configurable to user preferences and poorly documented). That manual repetition of things in the GUI was often required due to lack of being able to automate those operations was quite irritating. Pre-2000 versions also asked to reboot extremely frequently.</p>

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<p>At Harvard in 1978 you needed to have A’s in two semesters of each of the Gen Ed fields for a summa. I had enough A’s in humanities and science, but was one semester short in social science so I got a magna with highest honors in my concentration. I don’t remember what the GPA cut off was, but it must have been closer to an A- than an A. (And Harvard didn’t have A+'s.) It had nothing to do with the percentage of the class, but I do know that the summas and *magnas *with highest honors didn’t take up much space in the program!</p>