Hey everybody, it’s that time of year when you’re trying to decide where/whether to apply ED. I’m conflicted whether or not I should apply ED to UPenn Jerome Fisher’s program. I love CS and finance, so it seems like a good fit, but I’m not sure whether I’d want to work in an investment bank or “Google” type place.
As of now, I’d rather go to MIT, but that’s just because I live near Boston and know so much more about it. I’ve heard that Penn tends to be more cutthroat, especially among the Wharton students, which is something I don’t want.
Can somebody just share his or her thoughts? Ideally, I’d apply MIT EA and Jerome Fisher RD (no binding contract for either case), but Penn does love its ED applicants, especially for a competitive program like Jerome Fisher.
@Burrito12
Penn is not really cutthroat, it is competitive. There is a difference. No one is going to actively sabotage you or hinder your success in any way, you will actually find many people willing to help you. Even at Whaton, you do find some cutthroat people but most are quite friendly and collaborative especially as time goes on. SEAS is very collaborative.
However, you will be amongst a group of people that are extremely driven and really push themselves in terms of school, extracurriculars and job search/research positions etc and on top of that most have an active social life.
I seriously doubt the stress levels at MIT are lower, they are probably quite higher due to the rigor of the school if anything.
There are quite a few M&T students who turn down MIT every year. If you were applying just to SEAS or Wharton doing Penn ED over MIT would be a tougher decision, but for M&T it would make sense. You would have a slightly higher chance with ED but M&T is insanely competitive, it is near Harvard/Stanford/MIT level in terms of admissions difficulty.
ultimately if MIT is your top choice and you would regret not being able to attend if admitted then do MIT EA and Penn RD. If you would be conformable committing to M&T you could do Penn ED and MIT EA.
If you’re leaning more towards entering finance, then I would apply ED to Penn, which has a much larger ibanking class every year than MIT. This might be outdated, but from the last stat I saw MIT sends ~10 people into the analyst class every year versus 100 from Penn.
If, however you’re still undecided between careers, then either school is fine. Competitiveness at either school is likely very similar.
Does M&T really have the prestige that many Penn students say it does? It might be prestigious at Penn, but I feel that if I ask the average employer, they’d rather hire a Stanford/MIT grad than a Penn M&T grad.
@Burrito12 Penn, Stanford and MIT kids do not go for the average employer. The average person on the street and an average firm definitely knows MIT and Stanford more than Penn or Penn M&T specifically. But in sophisticated corporate circles M&T (and Penn overall) holds a lot of clout. Also no employer is going to hire a Stanford or MIT kid over a Penn kid just because MIT and Stanford have more lay prestige. This is not how elite recruiting works. At this level of schools, the doors will be open but your individual abilities will make the difference.
With M&T you get a lot more individualized attention and resources and access to a very tight-knit and super-successful alumni network that can really help you along the way. Also you would get a stronger business education. At Stanford or MIT you would be getting more lay prestige, i.e. average people down the street being very impressed with your school, and also a stronger engineering program. There is no difference in terms of employment opportunities however.
Your ideal strategy…Ideally, I’d apply MIT EA and Jerome Fisher RD (no binding contract for either case)…is the best option. Given you have some concerns, it doesn’t make sense to apply ED. I don’t think I would put MIT and Penn in the same group. While for someone 100% set on going into finance field Wharton may be a good option, it comes with a baggage of surrounding and competing with 500 other kids who want to do the same. If you’re in the ballpark for MIT, why not take a shot, especially given you like it.
^ OP is asking about Penn M&T not Penn as a whole. I wouldn’t put Penn on the same group as MIT either, but I sure would M&T.
Anyway, I agree if M&T is not your first choice and you have doubts then do not apply ED.
In our case, M&T was more selective than MIT/Stanford. My kid was accepted to MIT/Stanford/Penn but rejected from M & T, got Ben Franklin Scholars instead.
@burrito12 Penn is not cutthroat. The students tend to be competitive but also sociable and collaborative. They are working hard, but not deceptive, or intentionally trying to undermine their peers. The significant social aspects of Penn would make it difficult to be cutthroat, even if a student were so inclined, because word would spread fast.
“I love CS and finance, so it seems like a good fit, but I’m not sure whether I’d want to work in an investment bank or “Google” type place.”
Students don’t need to decide that now. It is common for Penn students to be interviewing for investment positions and tech positions during senior year. You might slightly prefer one over the other, but only if you get your top choice, so you interview for both. It is always good to have options as some positions get hotter and some cool down.
It can go either way; certainly the overall competitiveness is similar. It’s more a question of where a given applicant gets in, which environment is a better fit, and possibly whether the emphasis is slightly more on business vs. more on engineering.
FWIW, UC Berkeley now has a dual degree Management , Entrepreneurship & Technology program (MET), which may lure a lot of California talent given the caliber of engineering:
@renaissancedad “It’s more a question of where a given applicant gets in, which environment is a better fit, and possibly whether the emphasis is slightly more on business vs. more on engineering.”
Every M&T I have ever met thinks that Penn CS is harder and more time consuming than Wharton.
^ I don’t understand why that is relevant to M&T vs. MIT/Stanford. I doubt that Penn CS is harder or more time-consuming than CS at Stanford or MIT, and I have a hard time imagining many top CS applicants turning down MIT or Stanford for SEAS; but for one with a strong business/finance focus, the allure of Wharton might make a difference.
@renaissancedad definitely agree. this is one of the two main points that make the difference for the M&T kids who turn down Stanford/MIT. The other one is the highly personal and individualized attention and help M&T kids get at Penn through the M&T office and the M&T alumni. They are essentially big fish in an already pretty big pond. At Stanford or MIT they would be smaller/more average fish in an even bigger pond.
^ Absolutely. The small environment with a cohort of like-minded students and the attention/connections can be terrific.
There was a student from Florida named @“Keasbey Nights” a while back who was very advanced both academically (over 20 APs) and musically. IIRC, he was a Princeton alum, with very extensive family connections, and originally planned to apply SCEA, but he found his calling in CS+business, fell in love with the M&T program/environment, applied ED and never looked back. He graduated from M&T a few years ago, and I don’t recall any regrets. The OP might want to check out some of his old posts.
There’s no “right” answer, just a matter of where one is lucky enough to get in and which is the best personal fit.