They have and I’m not putting words in their mouth. I gave my interpretation of their words to see if that’s what they were thinking and they clarified.
This isn’t against anyone who pays in full. There are many who gladly do and it’s fine. My comment wasn’t related to that group but to the specific comment OP made about not having to do so.
In this case the OP doesn’t want to if it’s not required as both parents are in fields where the where you got the degree doesn’t matter.
@helpingthekid73 congratulations on having the funds to send your son to college anywhere he wants. This is a wonderful gift.
Would you be willing to let your son make this college choice based on how he views each college as a fit for him, and his potential interests? Or are you expecting him to take the offer that is the least net cost.
I will say again…having the ability to study a variety of things…and switch…at a well regarded university is really a great thing.
But finance is huge and quant finance is tiny (relatively) and you have no idea what your son’s interests are going to be. He could get excited about working in state government to finance bridge or other infrastructure projects (an important field in finance), or working for Pepsi developing pricing models for sugar substitutes in beverages, or working for a regional bank helping minority entrepreneurs gain access to capital for their startups, or working for the World Bank creating mechanisms for developing countries to pay for vaccines for the next pandemic. These are broad pathways in finance with multiple on-ramps.
I could probably describe 80 really neat careers in finance which are not in the least prestige oriented. Which doesn’t mean don’t go to Williams. It means that at age 17, most kids do not have enough knowledge to know that they want I-banking or quant finance (very different, btw) and therefore, making a college decision on that basis isn’t a good way to pick a college.
I sat on a plane once with a guy whose job it was to trace the assets of deposed dictators, to return the money to the citizens of the country from which they had stolen (and cheated, and in some cases, murdered). He was a highly paid consultant, who was retained by the Big 4 accounting firms. They were the CPA’s (and forensic accounting is a fascinating field all by itself) but he was an expert in esoteric financial instruments. He attended a college so obscure I had to look it up when I got to my office. (I work in corporate recruiting so I am familiar with hundreds of universities both US and overseas).
I know you want an “ROI” answer- but the ROI on a “kind of maybe” career like Quant isn’t something you can answer for a kid who probably doesn’t know what quants do all day. And may hate it. And may realize that by October of his freshman year. And then what?
Once upon a time, I worked for an NYC firm that does finance and econ research. In our analyst (undergrad) recruiting, we competed with i-banks and the Blackrocks of the world (and more recently top tech firms). When I first started, our NYC office recruited exclusively from Penn, Princeton, and Yale. (The Boston office covered Harvard, MIT, and Brown.) Over the last 15 years or so, the pool of core recruiting schools expanded to include Columbia, Williams and Amherst. The only way a candidate who had not gone to one of those schools got a job is if they had a connection that would get them an interview, or if they had something extremely unusual on their resume. I believe that there has been an increasing effort to diversify recruiting since the pandemic, but the short answer is that your undergrad school is still very important if you want to get into certain fields right out of college. There is more flexibility if you intend to go to grad school first.
(Note that I am not endorsing these recruiting policies, just describing them.)
This is also my understanding. However Vanderbilt, Duke will do very well in the sector in the south. Chicago and Northwestern equally well in the Midwest, and if you want to work in banking in SF, you better be out of Stanford or UC Berkley Haas.
Banking is not quant finance. And banking isn’t I-banking (a specific sector).
A kid can launch into a terrific career at a regional bank from a state flagship with a rigorous finance program.
Let’s not mess with the OP’s head more than we have to.
You know I could have written that same exact question you have. My understanding is recruiting has expanded somewhat because industry understands that a lot of talent is going to top publics as well. It’s also unclear to me if kids out of Williams and Princeton are getting the jobs because they came into schools already having connections or they are placing well because of the school name.
I personally think that Williams will take you further in NY but Emory might be just as good in the south. I think some of the recruiting is regional. In CA nobody has even heard of Williams. So I think I would take Williams over the other two and Vanderbilt over Emory.I am saying this with no real scientific evidence. Just what I was also told.
I am not sure if OP meant quantum funds or just finance related jobs and IB. I am mostly referring to IB, which I understand isn’t quantum funds. Lots of those hire math PHDs. That’s different. We are talking mostly about IB. And most of IB is in NY, although there are regional ones as well existing outside of NY.
You don’t need connections for a job as a quant. The jobs are very, very hard to get, and are extremely demanding intellectually. Nobody is risking his or her position by hiring someone’s nephew who turns out to be a dud.
These firms have their own assessments (tests, etc.) which flesh out a potential new hires abilities across a range of skills. Speed. Arithmetic accuracy. Coding complex problems and reducing them to a narrow set of variables. How someone deals with uncertainty and risk- is it a “seat of the pants” methodology, or is there rigor in measuring, hedging, developing appropriate (and cost effective) plan B’s?
None of this relies on connections. Knowing someone at one of these firms will get your resume a read. But if your resume lacks something they are looking for, you’ll get a polite email turning you down.
Some of the posters here are conflating several different types of roles. You want a job in private banking at a regional firm? yes, knowing someone helps. The fraternity you joined as a freshman helps. Playing lacrosse helps. Two years in the NFL- even if you were mostly on the bench- helps.
This is not quant finance. Private banking is a relationship business where mining your rolodex and being good at “making friends” is the ticket to success. Yes, you need to know something about finance, but these days, not much. You are selling financial products which were developed by people who really understand puts and calls and the yield curve. You need to know the lingo, but you don’t need to be a rocket scientist mathematically.
The career paths of bankers, I-bankers, Quants, (not to mention a wide range of “back office” type roles, many of which are fascinating and highly paid) are very, very different.
And again- we’re talking about a HS kid who likely doesn’t understand the various paths and differences!
An ROI calculation is going to be very difficult here. If your son ends up wanting to work at an i-bank in NYC, he would be better off at Williams than at a school like Emory. And given how much i-bankers make, the ROI would look good. But that’s a big if. What if he decides junior year that he wants a different life style and wants to become a music teacher? Or that he wants to go to law school? Only you can decide how much money you are willing/able to spend to give him easier access to a highly uncertain potential career choice several years down the road.
Again, you are misreading what I am saying. I said specifically I am not talking about quant funds. I am talking about IB and in IB connections will get you to places. If your uncle runs Goldman, you will probably land well. Lots of kids at very elite schools have those sorts of connections.
If your uncle runs Goldman your connections may get you a job in facilities management, HR, procurement. You aren’t getting a job in M&A unless you are actually qualified. Which is what people mean when they talk about IB. Getting a job AT an investment bank is a different animal from getting a job IN investment banking.
But how is this relevant to the OP’s question?
I think my questions has been answered. It is probably worth it to go to Williams if you want to go into finance. May not be worth it if you change your mind but since it is his first choice and we can afford it, makes sense. Seems others on his list are good for finance but less so. Now he just has to get accepted…
Once more, you are absolutely misrepresenting what I am saying. If you attended Williams and got a good GPA, you are qualified. Again, the question often is kids who are graduating from very elite schools and landing in elite jobs often come from families with connections. The question becomes if a school places well connected kids and not connected kids equally well.
So most of us here think that Williams will give a significant boost to kids who are not well connected and is worth it for its network.
Out of the schools you listed Emory has the best IB placement, then Vandy, then Williams.
So Williams isn’t worth full pay imho. I would play the ED/ED2 game with Emory and Vandy.
I dont think you know what you’re talking about, or the credentials of who told you this?
So I am editing my comment. actually the williams numbers based on percent of students is higher than both Vandy and emory, their numbers are just much smaller. If you look lower down in the article they rank at 12 based on percentage of students that have hires, and 63% go to elite institutions, so looks like Williams is worth it.
Thanks for the article!
If you scroll down, they do a percapita list, that takes into account the size of the school. The order is still the same. The biggest difference is that Emory has an undergraduate business school, while the other two dont so that helps. Williams would get your child into IB but they would likely have to try much harder to get an internship. Ask around and see which companies do on campus recruiting at these schools that will give you the best idea. Based on my experience in finance this list is correct and you see many Emory and Vandy grads on Wallstreet.
Here is a thread that may be of interest…
Up thread I commented so I won’t be repetitive but I based those comments on being the CEO of a large CIB and my experience over 35 years. Happy to defer to others with similar experience.
@Maryland85 are you an IB professional or basing your assessment on the “feeder list” you googled?
Not sure you know what Elite firms are. There’s only 4, Citi, BOA, JP morgan, and Goldman. IB is like being a doctor doesnt really matter which firm you work for as long as its IB. Yes Williams is small but only 27 students got an IB job at all. Thats risky if you ask me.