Jobs similar to Investment Banking

Graduate School Business School - MBA
1

<p>Hey,</p>

<p>In all honesty, the job of investment banking seems interesting to me. I like doing research on the market and making predictions and such. So what are more jobs like this? It doesn't have to earn as much as Investment Banking, but I would like to earn 100-120k, and I'd like it to not be like investment banking in the sense that:</p>

<p>a. YOU HAVE TO GO TO HYPS. I can understand those that go to a better school having a slight advantage, but I wouldn't like a job where you have literally no chance unless you go there, and even then, you still have a small chance of making it.
b. Working those odd hours as a banker. Up to 55-60 hours a week is the most I can handle, but am willing to work more if I get paid well (again around 120k or so after getting experience and so forth)</p>

<p>I've heard corporate finance is similar, but isn't that a branch of investment banking and is again something then that not everyone can do?</p>

<p>thanks</p>

2

<p>It's pretty hard to make the big IB bucks and not log 90+ hours a week. Corporate finance might be different in hours, but I'm guessing the pay is markedly lower.</p>

3

<p>like I said, I don't care about salary too much because I know that few jobs make as much as an investment banker, but what I'm more concerned about is that the job is something that I'd like (which corporate finance seems to do), and can make a good sum of money.</p>

<p>EDIT: And, I've done a search, and it seems that corporate finance IS in fact seperate from I-banking (although some IBers work in this sector), so I was wondering how hard it is to get a good job in a F100 or F500 company as an analyst, and then work your way up the corporate ladder, because it seems that, according to:</p>

<p><a href="http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layoutscripts/swzl_nationalrangebell.asp?geo=U.S.+National+Averages&jobcode=FA06000617&jobtitle=Financial+Associate+%28Corporate%29+II&narrowdesc=Financial+Services&narrowcode=FA03&yearsofexp=&r=salswz_swznatblb_psr&p=050205_psr_495&s=salary&pagenumber=2&paycheckcalc=0&zipcode=Enter+ZIP+%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layoutscripts/swzl_nationalrangebell.asp?geo=U.S.+National+Averages&jobcode=FA06000617&jobtitle=Financial+Associate+%28Corporate%29+II&narrowdesc=Financial+Services&narrowcode=FA03&yearsofexp=&r=salswz_swznatblb_psr&p=050205_psr_495&s=salary&pagenumber=2&paycheckcalc=0&zipcode=Enter+ZIP+&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>they make a ton of money after bonuses (more than I need). (btw is that information accurate because that seems excessive for only 3-5 years out of undergrad.)</p>

4

<p>The answer is, "sales". Be a good salesman and your hours are reasonable and your income is largely under your control.</p>

5

<p>[This is not clear at all, but I'm short on time--sorry about the mess this is!]</p>

<p>California_Love8, you’re actually looking at this in the wrong direction. “Investment banking” is more like a subset of corporate finance. Even at top schools there’s a lack of understanding about exactly what the world of finance and investment banking in particular “do.” People use IB (investment banking) interchangeably (and incorrectly) with finance to help people understand what they mean.</p>

<p>“You have to go to HYPS”: Not the case! As I’ll try to explain below, finance jobs are kind of like a mountain. Only a few people can get to the jobs at the very top but there’s a whole mountain to explore for those who don’t have what it takes for the very summit. Sort of like college admissions—some will make it to Harvard, but those who go to Stanford, UPenn, Northwestern, etc. are still pretty kickass. Plus, kids who aren’t from HYPS DO reach the very top, but they’ve just got to be outstanding everywhere else. My friend in Goldman IB is working for a Managing Director who went to (<em>gasp</em>) a state school. </p>

<p>About the “ladder” of corporate finance: At the very top you have the people doing IBD at Goldman Sachs. Right below that you have IBD at BB places like Morgan Stanley and Lehman Brothers. Somewhere after that falls people in S&T, investment management, research, etc., with those at better firms coming in above those at less prestigious firms. There’s a lot of variation—some “desks” or “groups” within certain banks have a great reputation and others are more or less in line with the bank’s general rep.</p>

<p>The biggest banks like Goldman Sachs, Lehman Brothers, Morgan Stanley, UBS, Credit Suisse, etc., are called the “buldge bracket” or “BB.” These banks tend to pay the most and be the most desirable. Below these are other large banks like Bank of America and Wachovia. Then there are small banks (called “boutiques”) that provide a lot more opportunities.</p>

<p>Generally, the more “front office” you are, the more prestigious (and well-paid) your job is. Investment banking would be at one end of the spectrum here and some back-office job like compliance would be at the other end. Things like S&T and research fall in the middle here.</p>

<p>Plus, the fact of the matter is that investment banking isn’t the best job in finance for all people. If you look at per-hour compensation, the guys in sales and trading come in way above those in investment banking. If you want good hours, don’t scoff at private wealth management or investment management. You’ll get paid less, but you’ll also get to have a life, which I hear is nice sometimes. </p>

<p>What should you do now? Focus on getting into a good school and taking economics and quantitative classes. Get a really high college GPA (along with school prestige probably the most important factor on whether or not you get an interview). You don’t have to be an economics major, but economics and math sure help. Get some relevant coursework in and then wait until your Sophomore summer before you even think about finance internships. Most people can’t snag one until their Junior summer (a time during which every tool on campus goes crazy). Polish your interview skills and make your resume sparkle—the interview is the most important part of getting an internship offer and (unless you screw up) an internship is basically a ticket to a job. </p>

<p>[Take everything I say with a grain of salt, but I’m sitting here typing this while I procrastinate during my internship at a BB (but not in IBD).]</p>

6

<p>Heh S&T is not front end? You do realize that at the BB bank you are working at (as a non banker) most of the revenues are coming from the S&T department. The best paid guy in your bank is also most likely from the S&T department (and not the CEO). No one considers banking a more "prestigious" or more "front end" job as S&T. IM is also way too broad to lump as not "front office". Asset management/IM groups at the banks includes such things as bank hedge funds. They aren't all mutual fund and private banking peddlers.<br>
I believe the OP was using HYPS as a way to show the elitist recruiting practices at banks. Stanford (which is the S in HYPS) and Penn aren't exactly state schools. The OP is wrong in giving up hope about IBD placement but s/he isn't completely off the mark that its an uphill battle for people who don't go to target schools.
You also do not need a lot of math for IBD. It doesn't take topology courses to do a DCF. The math heavies are in structured finance/S&T/quant AM groups.</p>

<p>To the OP> Most desirable things in life won't fall on your lap. Nor will the "high life" come cheap.</p>

7

<p>How fast do you need to make 120k? If you can be somewhat patient, there is no need to log more than 55 hrs a week and make that kind of loot. I'm looking at this from a TX perspective. In cali, 120k should be even less.</p>

8

<p>usually groups within fortune 100-500 companies that have similar aspect to investment banking type work include:
- Corporate Development
- Treasury/Capital Markets/Foreign Exchange
- Mergers & Acquisition Groups</p>

9

<p>well obviously the sooner the better, and I am willing to work longer hours to reach it for a little bit, but I've been thinking about what we discussed earlier, and I think you're right. Although I still do think intellect helps people get the job done, I am starting to see that there's no point of doing a job unless you like it a little bit. I mean, what am I going to do after I get that Mercedes? My work is going to allow me to only enjoy that car while I'm driving work and never else. But I digress.</p>

<p>Although I'd like to make it as early as possible (if anything to pay off that huge debt from education), but I just don't want it to be a job where I have to wait for like 14 years just to QUALIFY to make that much money. To give you an analogy, I don't want it to be something like trying to be CFO of a company where you have to work a really really long time, and even then, you aren't guarenteed to become one. Ideally, I'd like it to be with 3-7 years (long range, I know) after MBA, but if absolutely nothing matches this, then I'll take whatever suggestions are there. Do you have a job idea that matches my criteria or something?</p>

10

<p>see again, I thought mergers and acquisition was something you move into after investment banking, otherwise that would be a great job for me! Ugh! I'm so confused!! How hard is it to get those jobs that bern700 listed because all of those seem interesting except corporate developement, since I haven't heard of it.</p>

11

<p>Mahras2, S&T is absolutely “front office.” I don’t see where I implied that it wasn’t. Also, I think that what’s of greatest concern here, especially to the OP, are near-term earning capabilities. Those in IB will make more than those in S&T right out of the gate—it is very easy to find information on how much analysts and associates are making.</p>

<p>Trading types tend not to understand baking types and vice versa, but the general stigma among bright-eyed college students—whether it be right-headed or not—is that IB is more difficult to get into. Perhaps this is because school prestige tends to matter more in IB, especially when compared to quant recruiting.</p>

12

<p>Well this statement:</p>

<p>
[quote]
About the “ladder” of corporate finance: At the very top you have the people doing IBD at Goldman Sachs. Right below that you have IBD at BB places like Morgan Stanley and Lehman Brothers. Somewhere after that falls people in S&T, investment management, research, etc., with those at better firms coming in above those at less prestigious firms.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>And this:</p>

<p>
[quote]

Generally, the more “front office” you are, the more prestigious (and well-paid) your job is. Investment banking would be at one end of the spectrum here and some back-office job like compliance would be at the other end. Things like S&T and research fall in the middle here.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>School prestige matters plenty for S&T. The stigma is less to do with selectiveness (quant recruiting is even more selective IMO and the brightest guy usually end up at top institutions anyhow) and more to do with A) banking doesn't appear too esoteric or B) people would rather not have a clear indication of performance.</p>

13

<p>
[quote]
a. YOU HAVE TO GO TO HYPS. I can understand those that go to a better school having a slight advantage, but I wouldn't like a job where you have literally no chance unless you go there, and even then, you still have a small chance of making it.
b. Working those odd hours as a banker. Up to 55-60 hours a week is the most I can handle, but am willing to work more if I get paid well (again around 120k or so after getting experience and so forth)

[/quote]
</p>

<p>a) I am a summer analyst at Bulge Bracket firm. You do not HAVE to go to HYPS. My summer analyst class is certainly composed of individuals primarily from what are considered the Top 10-15 universities; however, there are individuals from "non-targets." You just have to work even harder to prove that you are a worthy investment.</p>

<p>b) If you do not want to work 90+ hours a week, investigate Sales & Trading. You still work long, but bearable, hours and have time for other endeavors. S&T, especially the structured products, requires way more quantitative skills than Investment Banking, which is fairly simple arithmetic The great thing about it is if you are AWESOME at it, your earning potential far exceeds an investment banker.</p>

14

<p>yeah but if you suck, then aren't you screwed? Otherwise, yeah, sales and trading, hedge funds (although I hear thats even harder to do than I-banking), or M&A are probably all good careers for me. I really want to get on the quant side of things if I do business, thats whats REALLY important to me.</p>

<p>Do you go to emory (guessing from your location)? And do you know what the steps are to get into S&T or M&A? I'm just worried because although I can be persuasive, I'm not sure if I'd be a good salesman, EDIT: and I don't want to do a career in which I'll get fired because I'm totally incompetent, so yeah.</p>

15

<p>Lol No I am a sophomore at Duke "majayi*duke09*"</p>

<p>Well if you suck at any job, you're screwed. </p>

<p>As for hedge funds, they are a great exit opps for excellent traders. There are investment bankers who go into hedge funds, but its not nearly as large as traders. Yes, attaining a position at a hedge fund can be difficult, but remember they come in various sizes ranging from a pool of Millions to Billions.</p>

<p>Typically, if an investment banker wants to go to the buy-side, he or shill will want to go private equity (well at least in this current market).</p>

<p>If you are interested in quants, look into structured product groups within Sales & Trading. One thing I have noticed in S&T is while, school prestige is important, but there appears to be a greater variety of schools on the trading floors than in investment banking. (I am a sophomore analyst who worked in IBD and now rotating through S&T)</p>

<p>Anyway lets assume you go S&T to hedge funds. You can really take advantage of quants depending on your particular funds strategy which can vary (stat arbitrage *, global macro, shorting, etc). * = especially quant heavy</p>

<p>Getting into S&T -- well apply of course. It is extremely important to banks that you attain an internship at a bank, because they typically wish to fill their FT class with their interns and have a few spots left for non-interns, but those "non-interns" typically have an internship at a competitor. You need to and can display strong quant skills via SAT scores, coursework, clubs, etc. Interview-wise prepare for technical questions, brainteasers, quick math, etc.</p>

<p>If your school is not recruited on campus, you need to make sure your credentials are oustanding and apply via website.</p>

<p>What school do you attend?</p>

16

<p>well I'm still in high school, but I'm praying for either Umich (not Ross, but LSA as an Econ), USC, or Emory. People tell me I'm a match (not a sure lock, but a normal match) at all of them, but I'm really scared because colleges are so fickle these days. Who knows where you'll get in and where you won't. If I go to a "crummy" school like University of Washington, (which I may end up at not just because I might not get into mich and stuff, but also because I have a few close friends going there) than I'm pretty much screwed right?? lol its easy for you to say mr. dukie (I'm a carolina fan btw, so grrrrrr lol). When I say HYPS, I don't just mean those 4, I mean ANY of those incredibly hard to get into colleges. </p>

<p>But I was wondering how do-able it is though? S&T still, again, sounds like one of those jobs where you basically have to go to a top school if you want to not have to rely on luck to get into. I'm really trying to avoid that as much as possible, so I guess lets go on to M&A :(. Gosh, this is really lame, all the jobs I want are all way too competitive. I really wish I was smarter, but such is life I guess :(</p>

17

<p>most of the people i know who enjoy and succeed at their work on wall street do so on the basis of 1) busting their ass for a ton of hours, and 2) being extremely friendly and personable, the type who makes friends easily and acts like an alpha male. smarts has very little to do with it unless it's a quant job.</p>

18

<p>california: Btw CorpDev is the group that typically handles all the ibanking jobs for a firm. From M&A activity to debt refinancing, etc. Treasury/CapMarkets/Foreign Exchange will typically manage a firm's cash portfolio, etc. M&A groups are similar to CorpDev however some firms will break the M&A function from the rest of the CorpDev roles. Usually getting these jobs requires previous banking experience. However, there are many firms out there that will hire analysts for these groups straight out of undergrad. If they don't it more a matter of networking your way into these groups. I've done it with 2 fortune 500 companies (one which was a fortune 50) and currently have interviews lined up with another 4 firms for full-time positions in these kinds of groups.</p>

19

<p>yes, but you go to wharton!!! I'm not good enough to go there, so can people who don't go to amazing schools please answer this, because, no offense, but its harder to listen to you guys say when you say, "oh plenty of firms recruit straight out of undergrad". Its easy for you guys to say because you are amazing, but I'm not. So yeah. Sorry to sound like an a-hole, but I'm not going to have the same networking opportunities as you guys. So realistically, someone coming from a good, but not great school, how good of a shot do they have at getting in?</p>