<p>Thanks to Bedhead for keeping up my argument somewhat. I wondered what happened with this little discussion; I have been moving in between houses for the past 20 hours or so (broken central air unit is not fun!)</p>
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[quote]
</p>
<p>Socialism will always fail? Are you sure? Are Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Iceland, Holland, Norway, Sweden and Switzerland all "failures"? Those nations are as wealthy as the US and, thanks to their socialized system, seem to have fewer societal problems.</p>
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[/quote]
</p>
<p>are you joking on the fact that those countries are as wealthy as the united states. you obviously need to check this out. also, non of those countries are socialist, they are all centrist, with a little more socialism than here in the us. and by no means are they doing good, most of them have over 10% unemployment and horrible health care and schools. Oh yeah all of those places have free markets, so they again are not socialist.</p>
<p>Also read on the "Economic Calculation problem" it shows that as the government could never actually know the price of capital goods, the economy will fail eventually. Look at soviet union, they were trying to match prices with japan and the US to regulate there capital goods, but never could and thus failed. </p>
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</p>
<p>Since when were we talking about capitalism vs. socialism? We were talking about whether government regulation/intervention is good or bad. My position it is it isn't either one all the time, but that it can be incredibly important and valuable. During the Depression, the govt's efforts at Keynesian relief were crucial. Your position seemed to be a blanket statement that it is always bad; this position to me seems ridiculously extreme since there are few markets that don't have explicit or implicit government involvement. And oftentimes it is the govt. involvement which helps guarantee a healthy market. Think, for instance, the stock market.</p>
<p>As regards whether capitalism is better than socialism, of course it is. But what in the world does this have to do with a discussion about the 2008 presidential candidates? If you are implying that Obama is a socialist, you are high.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>since we talked about laissez-faire economics, which they brought us into this realm of capitalism vs socialism and also individualism and collectivism.</p>
<p>you are wrong that it is important and powerful, it is always bad, The federal governments job is to follow the constitution, thats it. Now here in it does it say that the government should regulate the economy. Since it is not constitutional, it should not be done. It also gives congress the ability to print and coin currency, and thats all that should be done, there should be no fed reserve, again its unconstitutional.</p>
<p>"the govt's efforts at Keynesian relief", I say they were disastrous. Allowing a centralized bank and allowing for higher taxes by special interests is what caused the GD. all of these things are golden under supply side. the new deal or Keynesian relief is if not one of the most disastrous implementations ever made in US history.</p>
<p>Like I said read this and then talk to me, all the new deal did was hurt and extended the GD for Americans, if the markets would have just taken there course it would have been over in 1-2 years.</p>
<p>University</a> of California - UC Newsroom | FDR prolonged -- not ended -- great depression</p>
<p>In no time is it possible for a government to regulate or intervene in a market and for it to be healthy and free. Look at America, its a horror. Every time, a government intervenes, they are stating that they actually have the ability to harness the volatility of the market, which is impossible for any human to do. You need to go read some of Mises books, maybe you will wake up. As for the government and the stock market, why do you think we have booms and busts as well as recession cycles, its due to govt intervention, they dont exist under pure capitalism.</p>
<p>Obama is a collectivist, which can be inferred to as a socialist. He believes government should be running peoples lives. He believes the government should make the choices for the people and not let them make the choice themselves. sounds like socialism to me. BTW McCain is just as bad.</p>
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are you joking on the fact that those countries are as wealthy as the united states
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<p>What do you mean by wealthy? Do you mean by GDP? If so, then China, India, Russia, and Mexico are "wealthier" (and presumably, better to live in) than Canada, Australia, and Switzerland (some of the easiest places to live according to the UN). </p>
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most of them have over 10% unemployment and horrible health care and schools
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<p>And the U.S. is a beacon of economic growth, accessible health care, and first-rate public education after 8 years of Bushian Reaganomics? </p>
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Obama is a collectivist, which can be inferred to as a socialist. He believes government should be running peoples lives. He believes the government should make the choices for the people and not let them make the choice themselves. sounds like socialism to me. BTW McCain is just as bad.
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<p>Do the Democrats a favour and go vote for Bob Barr then.</p>
<p>^^^^^</p>
<p>Obama is a commie, Obama is a collectivist. </p>
<p>At least you had the intellectual honesty to say this:</p>
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BTW McCain is just as bad.
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<p>All I will say to your long diatribe is that you keep quoting over the internet (started by the government to help people communicate) the University of California (state-run), but even if you were quoting a private school's website, most private schools receive significant direct and indirect state support.</p>
<p>What cracks me up is ideologues such as yourself say there is no legitimate role for government, even as you enjoy the fruits of what the private economy left to its own devices would never have provided: the internet, roads, your education, your safety, etc. etc. </p>
<p>You live in a dream world.</p>
<p>Dr.Horse, you're a joke. Every one of the countries that BedHead listed have significantly better health care and education than the United States. This is not even a debatable point, it's a simple and unequivocal fact.</p>
<p>Better education than America? Better healthcare? Maybe betterhealth-care/education systems.....</p>
<p>To: nbachris2788</p>
<p>I am not going by GDP as its deceptive, to believe its better to live in Mexico is ridiculous. Theres a reason Mexicans come over the border noprth of them in droves.</p>
<p>The US is a beacon of economic growth and its also the beacon of freedom and liberty. Though just as I said before, when government intervenes, you get the busts and booms along with recessions cycles. If you allow the markets to handle everything, in which they do as they auto-regulate, then you never get these, Look at Australia as a smaller example.</p>
<p>accessible health care and education is not needed, these should all be done and handled by the private sector as in the worlds history when a federal government tries to make or involve itself in these topics, they always suck and fail. The prices of healthcare and schools would solely be determined by the markets and there would be more choices at a better price to the customer. Taxing all for the majority for the benefit for the minority is unconstitutional and unethical. All it does it create a endless welfare state cycle and government dependencies. </p>
<p>Bob Barr is just another Neocon, and while I am a Conservative Libertarian, I will still be voting for Ron Paul.</p>
<hr>
<p>To: BedHead</p>
<p>Communism and socialism are two different things. I am not in a dream world, I think you are and if you study history and learned your lessons, you will see that government only has a few legitimate roles. When government starts to come out of its scope, that nation has only one destiny and thats failure. There is a reason why socialism and communism and others always and I mean ALWAYS fail.</p>
<p>To say that the internet wouldn't have existed is foolish. while yes it was govt funded, who actually did the work and created it, it was universities. Saying that it would have never happened it ridiculous. Its like saying that if Siegfried Marcus didn't create the first car, nobody in out history would have ever come up with the idea or being able to do it. </p>
<p>My safety can be done by private organizations, as it used to be done. There is no need for a police force, they rarely do anything but make people scarred of them and abuse there powers, at least here in nyc. </p>
<p>The roads were and used to be done all by private corporations and the majority of the time the making and maintenance of our roads and highways is contracted out to private industry. The 12 colonies had road systems and from there, it was private industry, like the railroads whom wanted to extend commerce that built the system.</p>
<p>My education was utterly pathetic. Another reason why I hate govt intervention. It took me a lot of self studying and remedial classes when i got to university to catch up. Using the education system, really hurt your argument. Americas Education system is utterly horrible, why? simply because of govt intervention such as No child left behind. Communities should be able to regulate there own education top their own needs.</p>
<hr>
<p>To: 1of42</p>
<p>Thanks a lot for the complement. Having better health care and education is fine and great, but doing so by taxing is wrong. America was once the pinnacle of Health care and now sucks due to intervention in the 50's and 60's, etc. Now other countries such as Canada are suffering with there own socialized health systems. </p>
<p>Read these articles
globeandmail.com:</a> Health
CBC</a> News: Sunday - Belinda Stronach Interview
CTV.ca</a> | Canada's shortage of doctors to worsen: study
Universal</a> healthcare's dirty little secrets - Los Angeles Times</p>
<p>and read this on your schools databases. </p>
<p>"Commonwealth Fund, Mirror, Mirror on the Wall: An International update on the comparative performance of American health care, Karen Davis et al., May 15, 2007"</p>
<p>All of this points to how ****ty socialized medicine is. Whether it be bad care, lack of doctors, lack of specialized doctors or long waits. Its 100% propaganda, that somehow government ran health care is a good thing. If you believe it, I feel sorry for you. But if you want a politician making your life changing decisions for you, be my guest. </p>
<p>Collectivism is worse than war itself. The idea that you are to stupid to think for yourself and somehow a politician is smarter than you. I find people whom believe this quite funny and desperate. How can you think so low of yourself? I certainly could not. </p>
<hr>
<p>Another good article, on how in the private sector, we give more to the needy than our tax dollars give. Oh but you said capitalism didn't work?</p>
<p>I agree w/ Dr. Horse on the point that 'universal health care' is not a solution</p>
<p>Dr. Horse, thank you for your insightful and factual posts. You write "The US is a beacon of economic growth and its also the beacon of freedom and liberty". Indeed we are. </p>
<p>Unfortunately, over the last several years, the outspoken, irreverent left wing talking heads have continuously bashed our country. Disgusting pigs like Michael Moore have been cheered and revered for spewing lies. I am proud to be an American, but not proud of my country's citizens. I would rather have been alive during WWII and be a part of the patriotism and dedication to our constitution that was prevalent at that time, than have to listen to the mud slingers that only reinforce our negative reputation around the world. Everyone today feels "entitled" and if they don't get their way it is Uncle Sam's fault.... even those who aren't here legally. </p>
<p>And after reading many posts here on CC, I can tell I am in the minority.</p>
<p>fun stuff. Nothing to do with his character, but "I will veto every single beer"</p>
<p>Haha, I love the number of Princetonians who have jumped into this discussion.</p>
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Dr.Horse, you're a joke. Every one of the countries that BedHead listed have significantly better health care and education than the United States. This is not even a debatable point, it's a simple and unequivocal fact.
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<p>A few things:</p>
<p>1) Our heathcare is far superior for the top 30-40% than for those other countries, easily. We just have much bigger gaps of coverage. Much more expensive as well (ie: our doctors get paid more).</p>
<p>2) We spend more on education than virtually any country in the world. Yet the results aren't there. I'm blaming students and parents.</p>
<p>actually Mr. Payne, here in NYC they are thinking of paying students to go to school. </p>
<p>Students do bad in school because there parents suck and they think the world somehow owes them a paycheck(that is both parents and students). The solution to this problem is pretty cut throat. The idea that if you don't work, the govt will be there to save you has created what is a generation or a few generations of the laziest, stupidest,fattest,unlawful, disobedient, disrespectful, immature, irresponsible, etc... people in the known world and its history. To somehow think that the solution is to throw more money into the system is asinine. It doesn't work. Students don't need computers and air-conditioners, they certainly don't need multi million dollar facilities and they don't need $100 calculators to do math and science. All they need is a desk, some books, paper and a pencil.</p>
<p>What society needs is a good old kick in the but. Parents need to be woken up. Parents need to spend more time with there children, even more than with students spend with teachers. Students need to also be kicked in the but. School from 1st grade needs to be cut throat, kinda like college. You do the work which needs to be challenging or you simply fail. No social promotions or anything like that. Its very simple, either the student is suited for the next grade or they are not. My way is not like no child left behind, as I don't base a child's potential or intelligence, by a standardized test. Teachers which will need to uphold there responsibility to society, will be the judge. Teachers will grade children and then those grades will be secondly checked by the principal of the school or department head/dean. Principals or deans that check the work will be those only with more than 30 years of teaching experience. They will get paid more and have much more to loose, but they must be fair as the board of education will be watching him. If the teacher is slacking , such as doing social promotions, then they will be fired, they loose the privilege of being a teacher. the same will happen with the principle. The job of teaching must be made important and meaningful and most importantly desired and once gotten sacred. It needs to be a job that people dream of doing and not a backup. Our teachers should not be the people whom could not make it in industry and used teaching as a fall back, as usually these people aren't the best. Teaching should be a desirable job, in which the best and brightest teach Americans youth. We can do this by making it law that the starting pay for teachers is around 70K a year + the rate of inflation. When society has the idea that the best and the brightest will be compensated correctly for there work as teachers, it will make them want uphold a teachers obligation to society in fear of loosing there job, along with a similar pride in society of Doctor, lawyer, policeman and fireman.</p>
<p>Oh yeah and what happens to those parents and students whom cant pass. We will have special education programs which are similar to the regular students, but tailored to those with learning disabilities and other medical conditions. I am a product of the special education system, and I know it can work, but most times it doesn't. Students with behavioral problems will not be in Special ed programs. Students with behavioral problems, are that way due to lack of parenting, structurer and discipline.. Parents of those students, have the summer to legally get there children in line for the next year in which they will retake the same grade again. If a child still does not succeed, we will look to the parent and the law will come down on them for bad parenting. In a few years, thing will change.</p>
<p>all of these regulations are to be done by local governments. Nothing is done at the federal level.</p>
<hr>
<p>that ramble is just a idea, could be wrong, but I think its better than what we have now. We need some sort of change, and not the change Obama is talking about.</p>
<p>I mean watch this crap
Stealing</a> From Girl Scouts - CollegeHumor video</p>
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Unfortunately, over the last several years, the outspoken, irreverent left wing talking heads have continuously bashed our country.
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<p>At what point does calling out an administration proven to be rooted in manipulation, secrecy, lies, destruction of the Constitution in the name of power, blind cronyism, and perhaps even the rigging of elections stop being called left-wing bashing of our country and start being seen as trying to save our country from thugs who stole our government from us?</p>
<p>I understand that you support a certain worldview and will seek the light of that worldview until the end, but there is a very strong nonpartisan argument that this current administration could be effectively tried for and found guilty of murder and treason against the American people ("The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder"). </p>
<p>This is not politics and I am not a liberal. This is ethics, morality, and law. Perhaps it is time to stop being ideological and start being Americans again.</p>
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The US is a beacon of economic growth and its also the beacon of freedom and liberty.
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<p>This is just empty and tired campaign rhetoric. Just what exactly do you mean by this? And what facts do you have to back this up? I'm not saying the U.S. is a bad place (quite the contrary), but phrases like "America is the greatest country in the world" should be reserved for bombastic presidential campaigns.</p>
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Unfortunately, over the last several years, the outspoken, irreverent left wing talking heads have continuously bashed our country. Disgusting pigs like Michael Moore have been cheered and revered for spewing lies.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yeah, it's all Michael Moore's fault that nearly 80% of America is so damn unpatriotic and despises Bush for the last eight years of Republican government. Also that left-wing nut Scott McLellan. Goddamn him too.</p>
<p>Dr. Horse -</p>
<p>Perhaps it is best to view society not as a fixed ideology, but rather as an evolving body much like a child growing into adulthood. Just as a child needs parents to protect it from destroying itself, a society needs government to protect it from destroying itself when it is young.</p>
<p>You can talk endlessly about the ideal of free markets, but, ironically, it is conservatives who act out of a narrow self interest that perpetuate the need for government interference. So long as businesses will do whatever they can to maximize short-term profits at the expense of ecological systems, quality of life, or the impoverished, we will need government to reign them in. </p>
<p>This includes businesses paying workers as little as possible, oil companies wanting to drill everywhere they can, timber companies wanting to clear-cut as many forests as possible before moving onto the next, and developers wanting to put as many subdivisions as they can in, regardless of the larger ramifications. The solution is what our primitive society would called spiritual, but it is actually scientific. </p>
<p>If we evolved our collective consciousness to truly understand the fundamental scientific principle that "All is One", we would stop raping the land in the name of "progress" and "profits". We would collectively choose to support those in poverty, not because government told us to but because we understand that they are us. If they suffer, we suffer. Even if they chose time and again to blow their money on alcohol or drugs or gambling, we would understand that is the path they choose for this life and we would provide them the freedom and opportunity to pursue their happiness without being restricted by the crushing burden of poverty. </p>
<p>Only then, when we understand that whatever we do to the least of our brothers, we do unto ourselves (to paraphrase a Jesus teaching), will the free markets evolve to a point that we no longer need government to keep us from destroying everything. Only then will rugged individualism return to its pioneering spirit in which everybody helped everybody else out rather than just competed against each other for dwindling resources.</p>
<p>applejack post 1</p>
<p>but it is left-wing, Because neo-conservatives are left wing in my opinion at least. The neocon movement was started by very left wing jews, whom wanted to prey on the fear of man. We need to remember that when Freedom and Liberty are lost, they aren't lost to more capitalism, they are lost to Socialism and the Communism or worse. The foundation of this country is based solely on republicanism, please read the federalist papers. Founding fathers, have said that republicanism, is what allowed this country to be possible. Republicanism, is the opposition against, Aristocracy, Oligarchy and Dictatorship. In a purely Capitalistic world, we can never have these three, But in a Left/Socialist world or even Centrist, we can and do.</p>
<p>So right now, and as we elect every new President and senate we are moving further and further away from Capitalism and closer and closer to socialism. Which is bad. You think some thugs stole your government, I'm sorry but your wrong. You and your fellow citizen GAVE it away, nobody stole a thing, you gladly handed it away in the praise of protection from fear of some Leviathan. If you think Giving the presidency to Obama will somehow cure this situation, again your wrong. Obama is still just another thug that will implement more socialism, and will create more govt dependency on your dime. More govt dependency's leads to less freedoms & Liberties, stupid citizens whom will agree with everything a president has to say, for protection of the Leviathan. </p>
<p>People think George Bush is so Bad, hey McCain and Obama are just as bad. They may not do things the same way, but believe me, its all part of some larger agenda. Read Hitlers Mein Kampf, and you will noticed the similarities between us today and them then. See what Govt centralization does. </p>
<hr>
<p>nbachris2788. No it was said in a founding Federal Paper. Its in about a 600pg book, so I need time to look for it.
Plus almost very president has said it at there presidential inauguration.</p>
<hr>
<p>to appleJack":</p>
<p>If you want something that is able to evolve, that is exactly what capitalism is. It evolves with the will of the people. Since we live in a constitutional republic and not a democracy, the wheels of govt turn slowly, but surly. </p>
<p>I have a problem with the idea that a country needs to be protected against itself. Who the heck is the government? You again, with the collectivism and centralized power. To think that people need to be protected against themselves and the decisions they make by some government is ridiculous. I say this because you then need to ask yourself who the hell are the people running the govt. What makes some congressmen, different than the average joe. They are both human, so shouldn't both need the same protection? . What gives a govt personal a midas touch over a topic, compared to lets say me or you.</p>
<p>Its a bloody joke, to think that the people in govt somehow can think for themselves, but we cant. I'm sure it has worked well before. People will always choose what is best for them. They don't need somebody telling them, or protecting them. and since we now have this, we have students and parents like I mentioned above.</p>
<p>NO its not Conservatives, its Neo-conservatives which are closely related to the left. Remember, like I said before, necons are just liberals with some religion. Go Read some Barry Goldwater and Ron Paul, then come back and tell me What a Conservative is. OK? did ya know most true conservatives are for legalized abortion, but disagree with it personal. What the media today calls conservative is neoconservative, but they are not conservative, in no means as they go against the 3 pillars of conservatism which are</p>
<ol>
<li>Dont police the world</li>
<li>Dont spread democracy/No nation building</li>
<li>No Big government, as minimal as possible</li>
</ol>
<p>But as you can see, neoconservatives love to police the world, love to nation build and love big govt.</p>
<p>In the Conservative(not neo) way which has a large subset of the ideology of Libertarianism. Govt needs to be as small as possible, but still needs to protect its people and their property. So when Big Business abuse the enviorment, under private property laws, they would get in trouble. Cutting down tree's, well that seems to harm mankind, so its bad. </p>
<p>As for business paying less. They pay what the market and the workers want to be paid. There are doctors now making 60K a year, but if every doctor stood up and said no, they wouldn't be getting paid 60K a year. Thats what unions do, and it works. The free market is self regulating where the majority chooses what is the best direction possible. There is no better way.</p>
<p>Actually we do support poverty, look at this link, that proves that Americans give more than government gives with our tax dollars. Hudson</a> Institute > Press Release: U.S. Private International Giving to Developing World Exceeds $62 Billion
I am all for helping the poor, just not from my tax dollars and I need it to be my choice. The federal govt has no right to tax you, your hard earned money and to give it to somebody undeserving in your eyes. It is not the federal govts job to provide a welfare state and nowhere in the constitution does it say this. In the federalist papers, they warned us to stay away from a welfare state as they corrupt absolutely. People also need to work, like I mentioned in my education post, because they get to lazy and stupid. Having a safety net hinder progress for a country.</p>
<p>you do understand that it is so incredibly hard to go from socialism to capitalism, its nearly impossible without full collapse. Like in Germany.</p>
<p>This thread has lost its point. Here's something that ought to bring it back to its focus:</p>
<p>Dr. Horse, that sounds like a Ron Paulish post....If you really wanna talk about this further, you should start your own thread;)...</p>