<p>When we were at Julliard this summer, we understood that one who gets into Columbia and Julliard is actually registered at Columbia with lesson privileges at Julliard. Does anyone know the specifics of these dual programs (ie how much time is spent at either school and how much the Columbia student can play in the school ensembles, etc,)? It would be nice to hear from someone actually in a dual program as well...I hear very very few finish both.</p>
<p>My information is 2 years old. We investigated the possibility of double degree programs at Juilliard and MSM. The internet information is very confusing, but after discussions with admissions, it was clear that there is no viable double degree program at either conservatory. It was also clear that both conservatories activity discouraged academic participation. </p>
<p>Juilliard has an "exchange" program with Columbia/Barnard. The Juilliard applicant may apply for the exchange, may apply for a performance degree and may also apply to C/B. Students are not permitted to enroll simultaneously for dual degrees. A very small number of Juilliard students are accepted for the exchange program and are permitted to take up to one course/semester. These students are not enrolled at C/B and are not eligible for a double degree. Full time C/B students may also apply for exchange. They must be accepted at Juilliard and must successfully pass annual juries in order to remain in the exchange program. The exchange permits lessons but does not allow participation in performance groups nor does it allow pursuit of a BM in performance.</p>
<p>We looked into the programs with NEC/Tufts and Peabody/JHU. BOTH are music/engineering programs and are highly competitive...HIGHLY. In the case of the NEC/Tufts program the student actually does not do any significant music work for the first two years. DS said that was ridiculous for someone who intended to be a performer. Also, in both cases, DS felt that the distance between the two campuses was not favorable for the performance major who he says should be spending more time practicing and less time on shuttle busses. He is at BU...but even there completing a double major is not all that easy to do. The reason is that there are a ton of music courses that have about 1 or 2 credits each which are required of the music majors...but they meet for HOURS each week. For example, DS rehearses with ensembles everyday (I think it's 3:30-5:00...maybe Fiddlefrog can confirm this) for a rousing one credit. A performance major really doesn't complain about this...but it does consume time for those who want to pursue a double major. It's not impossible...but it IS hard.</p>
<p>D also looked at the NEC/Tufts program and actually applied. She wound up wait-listing at Tufts, but had abandoned the idea before she received her acceptances. She also abandoned the idea of doing a dual degree program at Rice, IU or Case/CIM. As Thumper pointed out, it cuts into your music too much and is extremely difficult to do. Yes, there are a few kids who manage it, but it is a tough road and the music faculty is generally not very encouraging.</p>
<p>My D was looking into the Juillard/Barnard double major but from what I've heard, you can count on one hand the number of musicians who actually completed the program.</p>
<p>Thank you! This makes sense...and is consistent with what I have heard. I have heard that even some kids at Northwestern feel pulled in two directions in the dual program. I can only imagine what it's like if a kid has to go between two entirely different schools!</p>
<p>Going between schools is only a small part of the issues for double degree students. The biggest issue is that requirements can be excessive. The most feasible programs are those with modest requirements. A good example is Oberlin. Oberlin only requires 76 credit hours within the conservatory. A double degree student can graduate with the 76 credits and a total of 152 credits.</p>
<p>Lawrence has a long history of support and success for double-degree students. "Super Seniors" are many and the it is one of the most integrated programs (conservatory/college) about which I'm aware.</p>
<p>Just a slight clarification on edad's post. The requirements for double degree candidates at Oberlin indeed include 76 conservatory credit hours, a minimum of about 62 college hours (give or take a few depending on the non-music degree) and enough additional hours in either the conservatory or the college to reach a total of 152. This program is normally done in 5 years, although some have accomplished it in 9 semesters.</p>
<p>Conservatory students not in the double degree program there are required to take 82 hours in the conservatory, 24 in the college and an additional 18 in either for a total of 124 in a nominal four-year program.</p>
<p>I thought it would be interesting to compare the requirements at Oberlin to the minimum requirements at Juilliard. I could not find Juilliard BM requirements, but I found requirements for Manhattan School of Music. MSM requires 98 conservatory hours plus 24 "humanaties" hours for a total of 122 semester hours. The MSM conservatory requirements would add another semester and a half to the Oberlin double degree music requirements. The same thing can happen with academic requirements and the 4 1/2 - 5 year program at Oberlin can easily turn into the equivalent of 6 years or more. No wonder Juilliard and MSM do not allow double degree programs. In order to make a program feasible they would need to reduce conservatory requirements.</p>
<p>Geez..my BU kid needs 132 semester hours to graduate. I don't know the breakdown music vs. non-music. The university has an 8 course core curriculum requirement. I guess that's 24 hours. Don't know what the music requirement for semester hours is...</p>
<p>It is difficult to compare programs on the basis of number of semester hours alone. </p>
<p>In the case of Oberlin and MSM, both schools have fairly similar requirements but they weight the classes slightly differently. For example, both require eight semesters of primary applied lessons for which Oberlin grants 32 credits and MSM 28. Both require four semesters of theory class for which Oberlin grants 12 credits and MSM 16. Both require four semesters of Aural Skills which gets you 4 credits at Oberlin and 8 at MSM. </p>
<p>The main difference between the two curricula is that MSM requires a couple of additional music history classes and two semesters of conducting but does not include many completely free electives. Oberlin has lots of free elective credit hours built into their curriculum which could be used for the equivalent history and conducting classes, or for many other purposes.</p>
<p>I would expect that a comparison between Oberlin and BU or between MSM and BU would yield similar results, with a slight shift in emphasis here and there but far more similarity than difference.</p>
<p>As edad points out, the amount of flexibility in the curriculum is a very important element to consider when looking at double degree programs.</p>
<p>BassDad how are those January special programs handled at Oberlin? Are there credits toward graduation earned taking those for conservatory students?</p>
<p>I think it might not be true that MSM just gives more credits for the same coursework. It is also likely that those courses involve more time and work. The bottom line is that MSM, Juilliard and some other conservatories expect a near total 4 year commitment to music. That just does not work well with a double degree program. The music requirements need to be scaled back. In addition, there needs to be "flexibility." The academic requirements need to be reasonable and the graduation requirements cannot include much more than the basic core for an academic major plus the basic music core. In addition to higher music expectations at some conservatories, that flexibility is not always present and the total hours needed for some double degrees can exceed 200 semester hours. It is easy to see how this can happen. If a conservatory degree requires 122 hours with only 24 hours outside of music, the same can happen with academics and you find 98x2=196 hours, minimum.</p>
<p>Oberlin operates on a 4-1-4 schedule with the month of January being devoted to individual and/or group projects. Ideas for projects can come from both faculty and students, but must be approved by faculty if suggested by a student. A limited amount of funding is available through the school. </p>
<p>All students at Oberlin (both Conservatory and College) are required to complete three January term projects while there, but no credit hours toward graduation are granted for them. Depending on the complexity and time involved, a project can count as fulfilling all or half of one January term requirement. It is possible to do two half-term projects in the same year. The requirement of three could also be met by doing a full term's worth of projects in three years, or by doing two years of full-term projects and two years of half-term projects.</p>
<p>Projects can be as simple as reading some books at home, or as complex as the famous re-enactment of a journey on the Underground Railroad that had students walking hundreds of miles in period garb and sleeping in barns and church basements.</p>
<p>I think credit hours in the conservatories are not reliable for comparison (that said, in the university/college part, the flexiblity of the program CAN be compared by required credits). The conservatories have very different way to compute credits, major lessons, for example, are counted for only 1 credit in the Music School in UM, but 4 credits in Peabody. So even though in a stricly university setting, a semester credit load of 14-18 credits is pretty much common throughout the country (correct me if I'm wrong), in a conservatory, anything number can happen in different conservatories even if the students are having similiar amount of work load.</p>
<p>Having attended neither, I have no direct experience with the ratio of work expected to credit granted at Oberlin and MSM. I imagine both keep their students pretty busy. There has been much debate about whether you produce a better musician by total immersion or through the simultaneous study of other areas and I expect that the answer is highly dependent upon the nature of the student. I have seen a number of fine musicians come out of both schools, so both must be doing something right.</p>
<p>I certainly agree. I am not sure if full immersion produces a better musician. I would guess it produces a technically more skilled musician at least for the short term, but there is a lot more to life and music than just performance skill. Many classical musicians go on to graduate programs and certainly skills are developed over many years. It is interesting that Bard started the conservatory with a requirement for a double degree. With the changing job market, it is probably time for some other conservatories to re-think their approaches.</p>
<p>Columbia appears to have two programs with Julliard</p>
<p>Programs with the Juilliard School
Exceptionally talented Columbia College students have access to instrumental and voice instruction at the Juilliard School through 2 distinct programs. The two different programs available to students are described below.</p>
<p>1)
Students can cross-register for instrumental and vocal instruction with the Juilliard faculty at no additional cost after completing the formal application and successfully auditioning at Juilliard. This program is called the Barnard-Columbia-Juilliard Exchange. Through this program, a limited number of current or prospective Barnard and Columbia students may have the opportunity to pursue private music lessons at Juilliard. Successful applicants to the Barnard-Columbia-Juilliard Exchange are full-time registered students at Barnard or Columbia, have weekly lessons at no additional cost with a member of the Juilliard faculty, and take annual juries, which determine eligibility to continue in the program.</p>
<p>Applicants to this program must submit a Juilliard Application for Admission, including pre-screening materials if required, by the published deadline. Admission to the Exchange is highly selective, with only 4-6 students from all classical music majors admitted each year. The fee for Exchange applicants is $35.</p>
<p>Barnard and Columbia applicants may choose to be considered also as performance majors at Juilliard. On the application, check both boxes, for Bachelor of Music as well as Barnard-Columbia-Juilliard Exchange (classical and jazz lessons only). It is possible, because of the selectivity described above, that applicants to both Juilliard and the Exchange may be admitted to only Juilliards Bachelor of Music program and not be admitted to the Exchange, regardless of admission status at Barnard or Columbia.</p>
<p>First-time college students who are applying Early Decision to Barnard or Columbia must withdraw their Bachelor of Music application if admitted Early Decision, but may continue with their application to the Exchange. The fee for applicants to both The Juilliard School and the Exchange is $100.</p>
<p>2)
Students can participate in a joint degree program that offers students the opportunity to earn the B.A. and M.M. in five years. To apply to the joint degree program, Columbia College students must have completed 94 points of course work, including the Core Curriculum requirements and major or concentration requirements. Students then apply to Juilliard, audition at Juilliard in their junior year, and, if accepted, enter Juilliard in their senior year. Students accepted to the joint degree program will spend their senior year as well as the following year living in Juilliard dormitories, and those receiving Columbia financial aid will be subject to Juilliards financial aid policies during their time at Juilliard.</p>
<p>Auditions for both programs with the Juilliard School are conducted in early March for fall admission. The application deadline is December 1 for March auditions. Interested students should obtain an application and audition information from the Office of Admissions at Juilliard and submit it directly to Juilliard.</p>
<p>Fabulous post...that makes it all absolutely clear! Thanks!</p>