The Conservatory is definitely not going out of business. They have a $1B endowment. There are many schools with practically no endowment and an 80% acceptance rate.
@thibault - Northwestern does the same now and, in fact, make it relatively easy to dual degree (B.Mus Beinen/BA Weinberg) in five years. They also have their school of communication (including classes in performing arts). They attract a ton of brainy conservatory kids.
Maybe it’s instrument-specific but my S’19 is an elite youth musician and his teacher highly recommended NU over Oberlin for a good combination of top academics and music. And NU isn’t alone among the research universities by any means. So if Oberlin should be commended for pioneering this valuable combination, they should keep that fact in mind while considering their next steps.
Agree that the conservatory wouldn’t be going anywhere if the school started to descend. My son was highly interested in Oberlin for music but he was very turned off by the thought of attending the college for his academics. No way is he alone in thinking like that.
Thanks for these comments.
Ivy, I hear you, and sorry bout your ox.
Wondering whether the Conservatory could be / might be peeled off from the college in the next 3-4 years…?
Sort of like a corporate spinoff e.g. where the parent company is decrepit, has rotten leadership etc but one of the main business units contains most of the value and would thrive as a standalone entity.
Is that at all likely?
If not well scratch Oberlin from the list and go back to the other main prospects.
In recent years, Oberlin has come very close to the top 50 across all schools nationally by conventional academic indicators – placing tied for 56th with UVa (as well as with test-optional Smith and Bates) in the below analysis based on standardized scoring. Because the analysis dates from a few years ago, it could serve as a statistical baseline with respect to the recent controversy’s effects on the direction of Oberlin’s selectivity.
https://amp.businessinsider.com/the-610-smartest-colleges-in-america-2015-9
Hopkins/Peabody also offers a dual degree in five years.
https://peabody.jhu.edu/academics/degrees-programs/double-degree/
https://www.counter-currents.com/2019/06/the-real-story-of-the-oberlin-shoplifters/
Despite their thuggish behavior, the kids involved were not from the hood. Two were from fancy white areas and the other from a long time fancy black area. They had good preparation and their parents probably paid most of the tuition. One went to private school, another Catholic school,and the third a well known public school in the very high end white part of DC.The actual shoplifter went to Phillips Andover. I assume most students their are in the social register and I don’t know how he got in there. It might not be easy being black at Andover.
In other words, wealthy entitled kids who wallow in their perceived victimhood.
@sattut, @roycroftmom, re the link in #365:
The address for the shoplifter is in a complex of modest condos/apartments. Zillow lists them as valued in the neighborhood of $200K, in NJ, a high cost of living state. Still doesn’t excuse stealing, but I’m not loving the narrative being created of the silver-spoon black student.
You would assume incorrectly. The school he attended, Phillips Andover, practices need-blind admission. 47% of students receive financial aid and 13% receive a full scholarship (tuition, room and board and some expenses.)
One of the women lives in a 3-family building with a total square footage of 3,231sf, so around 1,100 per family. Each has 2 bedrooms and a single bathroom. So again, not the lap of luxury. The address for the third woman is not on record according to the story.
Let’s get back to the central issue, the lawsuit and its effect on Oberlin College.
So the shoplifter probably had need scholarships at Andover and Oberlin. The girls seems relatively well off. Isn’t Andover where Presidents Bush went? I don’t hang around in those circles, but I can’t believe the majority there aren’t fancy background or big donors.
MODERATOR’S NOTE:
Might I remind members of the forum rules: “Our forum is expected to be a friendly and welcoming place.”
Snark has no place on this thread, and it ends now. Several posts edited/deleted.
Oberlin provides fine academics as well as a first rate music program. I’ve known quite a few Oberlin alums and they all got sterling educations that well prepared them for rigorous graduate school curriculums, Med school and careers. I would put Oberlin way up there in terms of academics without a single qualm.
However, even before this Issue, this lawsuit happened, I would bring up the highly liberal and activist environment there. Schools do have a vibe, and Oberlin’s is quite different from not so far away, and also excellent LAC, Kenyon College. For those who are annoyed with more than the usual dose of ultra liberals, (and I always believed it was a bit over the top as completed to most already primarily liberal schools) , it may not be a comfortable environment.
Sadly, these lawsuit is just going to push this reputation even further I have two friends who are great Oberlin supported and alums, and they are both dismayed about this. They are not at. all happy about how the college handled this. They feel this is going to hurt enrollment and contributions, way more than it is going to help.
Agree with the above wish that we put aside efforts to link the perpetrators’ economic background, wealthy or otherwise, to this matter.
To coin a phrase, the issue here is the content of their character. Not attributes of class or race.
Maybe I’m out of touch, but I thought that those of our institutions we entrust with shaping our young people’s character still treated theft as a big deal. Shoplifting is a felony, is it not?
Or is there now a presumption in these schools and institutions that - as Critical Legal Studies advocates and their ilk might have it - property itself is theft?
Could it be that these kids and others at Phillips Andover, Oberlin etc have been given the notion that shopkeepers and other petit bourgeois owners have no right to their assets and inventory?
These are serious questions.
Appreciate any insight into what is going on inside Oberlin and the other elite schools.
I think some of this might have gotten off to the wrong start when a miscreant shoplifted and when tackled by the store owner’s son, it was misinterpreted by the students who saw this and jumped in to help the student. Whatever they admitted and said at the hearings for that action could have been the best way for those 3 accused to get out of the charges with the least harm. The job of an attorney is to get the best deal for his clients. I’ve known a lot of people who have pled to things way off to get off.
It’s unusual for a store worker to attack a shop lifter. You call the police. Not jump the perp. So that entire scenario could have caused the snowball that grew into an avalanche.
There may be something to the “property is theft” mentality. If kids are learning that as part of their elite progessive primary, secondary and post-secondary education, then shoplifting a few items isn’t going to be that big a deal.
On the other hand, people in their late teens and early 20’s do all sorts of stupid things, regardless of how they are raised or educated. The “morality of invincibility” might well hold sway over their better angels at this age.
“The job of an attorney is to get the best deal for his clients. I’ve known a lot of people who have pled to things way off to get off.”
Get off from what - worse charges? Usually people negotiate a plea deal in order to get the charges reduced from something they did that was worse.
The catalyst who started the whole thing was none other than the young man who attempted to steal a bottle of wine. It wasn’t the Gibsons for attempting to stop him. That’s blaming the victim.
So, I have gone through the entire college selection process with no need to post, although I have read lots of posts over the two year process. However, after reading 25 pages about the Oberlin fiasco I had to make an account and put in my two cents. First, what everyone on this site should be focused on is how all this affects OC’s enrollment and reputation. Or even more so, how will it affect your child’s life at Oberlin (budget cuts, hostility from surrounding community, reputation to get into graduate school, etc.). Isn’t this what this site is about? Picking a college? It should not be about attacking a college. Regardless of what has happened, Oberlin is an amazing school and will be a great fit for lots of kids.
To give some background I have visited Oberlin twice with my child. Both times I have been incredibly impressed with the college, the president, admissions and the I loved the town. Although I read the 2016 New Yorker Article (The Big Uneasy) I chose to ignore it because it reflected our general politics our child was comfortable with it. We were offered a large merit aid award - 2x what most other selective colleges would provide. 10k/15k really didn’t change things for us but what they offered was game changer. So, we went with Oberlin - there are so many things that are amazing about the college.
But, there was uncertainty. Then there was research (believe me we did research before as well) and and lots of worry. The lawsuit, plus budget issues, resulted in us pulling out and deciding on a less controversial school. Even more we were worried that the activist element would lead to being dissatisfied. Obies feel wronged at every point in their lives - they are always looking for a cause and since they are in the middle of nowhere it can lead to silly (in my opinion) causes. For example protesting about whether sushi is authentic and therefore culturally inauthentic is absolutely over the top. I can admire that but also feel that it probably isn’t a good fit for my kid. Very unfortunate because it is such a special school and I’m sad that we will not be a part of that community. .
376 - "what everyone on this site should be focused on is how all this affects OC's enrollment and reputation. ...Isn't this what this site is about? Picking a college? It should not be about attacking a college"
I can’t speak for others but my interest in this matter is entirely in line with what you say above.
This isn’t about politics or about wishing anyone ill.
I understand and accept that there are many who are attracted to Oberlin in large part because of its history of progressive activism, and that there are many others whose politics incline them to other elite colleges that are less progressive or less activist. But activism per se is not really the point.
The reason that I and, I think, most people viewing this bizarre sequence of events are appalled is that the leadership of this great institution is astonishingly clueless and incompetent. What is playing out is literally unbelievable, outlandish, unthinkable.
And whenever any great institution is headed up by mendacious, foolish and inept leaders, that institution very quickly will decline. We see this in all kinds of organizations, be they great nations and great cities, for-profit corporations, administrative branches of government, or social or cultural institutions.
This pattern of Decline & Fall - ie first the bad leadership makes foolish mis-steps and then engages in denial, after which they tell lies and betray their core principles, which leads to internal rot, which makes the institution vulnerable to healthier rivals which rise and take power or influence or market share from the declining entity - this tried and true pattern makes us conclude that there’s a not insignificant chance that Oberlin will cease to be a great college at some point in the next decade or two.
Unless, of course, there is a wholesale change in Oberlin’s leadership ranks, starting at the top, with a new president, and including a new chief counsel, new deans of students and a new head of communications.
If such a change does not happen, then we should not be sending our kids to Oberlin.
Ultimately, for us as parents, this is what the controversy is all about.
@thibault - it makes you wonder if these administrators were brought on more for their social justice credibility rather than their ability to lead an academic institution.
This thread reinforces the FIT component of college selection - you not only have to take into account academic and financial fit but also cultural fit; otherwise, it could be a deal breaker. When we toured with our oldest D, we asked if all of the NY Yankees and Giants signs in the dorm windows would be problematic for a kid from outside of Boston. Surprisingly, it was not. In fact, the student body (unrehearsed - outside of tour) were quite friendly/welcoming.