<p>Is this list correct?</p>
<p>... Probably?</p>
<p>It seems reasonable. The list might ultimately grow a bit as more people change careers and enroll in engineering grad school later in life.</p>
<p>Top LACs, like Williams, produce huge numbers of doctors, lawyers, MBAs, professors, etc. For these careers, the graduate degree is the first professional degree, so the exact nature of the undergraduate degree is of secondary importance.</p>
<p>But engineering is different. In the US, the bachelor's degree is still widely perceived as the first professional degree for engineers. So the vast majority of the people who pursue engineering start studying it at the undergraduate level. That rules out Williams, and most other LACs (with a few notable exceptions like Swarthmore, Smith, Trinity, and Harvey Mudd). </p>
<p>A science or math BA from a LAC, combined with an engineering MS from a university, is a viable combination for most engineering careers. In fact, it's likely to become increasingly popular, because the MS (rather than the BS) is increasingly becoming the preferred first professional degree in engineering. But for now, it's still relatively uncommon for LAC graduates to pursue engineering careers, except at a few LACs (like those mentioned above) which do have engineering programs.</p>
<p>Incidentally, I am a Williams grad who practices engineering. I am not on the Williams list though, because my engineering credentials were earned through the state licensing system (P.E.) rather than through the academic system.</p>
<p>Allowing for the possibility of an isolated typo somewhere, I'm sure the list is accurate. I've never seen Williams mis-state compiled data in any of its reporting, such as this list.</p>
<p>The list is confirmed by the percentage of Williams graduates who received a PhD in Engineering (hard core academic engineering, I suppose) over the most recent 10 year period. 3 out of every 1000 Williams grads went on to earn an Engineering PhD, or about 2 per year on average. </p>
<p>That's not a particularly high number overall (149th in per capita Engineering PhD production), but it's a pretty solid number for a school with no engineering. Quite a few of the better LACs (with no engineering) show nicely on this list, presumably due to strong math and science majors. I think Grinnell produces the most for a non-engineering LAC - 6 per 1000 graduates. Carleton is 4 per 1000. Pomona and Haverford, the same as Willliams (3 per 1000).</p>
<p>Harvey Mudd is obviously very high (52 per 1000), but that's an tech school, not an LAC.</p>
<p>Swarthmore is the highest of any conventional LAC (19 per 1000), but they've had an engineering department for more than a century, so you would expect that.</p>
<p>"Harvey Mudd is obviously very high (52 per 1000), but that's an tech school, not an LAC."</p>
<p>This is definitely fuzzy ground. HMC definitely has the qualities of both... we have a rigorous, yet broad science curriculum that is rich in the humanities.</p>
<p>So, Is it because Williams grads are less interested in Engg or that universities are less interested in Williams grads? I know in Professional schools admissions Williams is ranked 5th(WSJ ranking).</p>
<p>
[quote]
This is definitely fuzzy ground. HMC definitely has the qualities of both... we have a rigorous, yet broad science curriculum that is rich in the humanities.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Essentially all Mudd students major in math, sciences, or engineering. All other courses are lumped together in a Humanities and Social Sciences Department with very limited course offerings. In a recent semester: 1 art course, 3 econ courses, 3 history courses, 2 lit courses, 2 philosophy courses, 1 poli sci course, 1 psych course, etc.. No language departments. </p>
<p>It's a great tech school. And, the consortium helps. But, it's not a liberal arts school in the sense of having significant percentages of the students majoring in math/sciences, social sciences, and humanities. There's nothing wrong with a great tech school.</p>
<p>
[quote]
So, Is it because Williams grads are less interested in Engg or that universities are less interested in Williams grads? I know in Professional schools admissions Williams is ranked 5th(WSJ ranking).
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Williams doesn't have an engineering department or any engineering courses or any engineering professors, so obviously it doesn't attract a large number of engineering students! It's kind of like a college without a football team probably doesn't send too many players to the National Football League!</p>
<p>BTW, Williams does do very well in professional school placements, but the Wall Street Journal feeder school list had a hideously flawed methodology. Too few grad schools, too much northeast bias in the sample, too short a time frame (just one year). Any Research Design course at Williams would rip that survey to shreds.</p>
<p>Just 4 Williams graduated attended a Engineering Graduate School? </p>
<p>If you'll notice, these are students from the physics department. Students with majors in other departments also attend graduate engineering programs that aren't listed on this page. If you check each of the math and science major department websites, you should see more.</p>
<p>There are probably a few other students, from other departments besides physics, who wind up in engineering. For example, there are probably chemistry majors who become chemical engineers, or geology majors who become geotechnical engineers. </p>
<p>But in general, students who want to study engineering don't attend liberal arts colleges, for the simple reason that most liberal arts colleges don't offer engineering courses or engineering degrees. Most prospective engineers go to universities instead, where engineering is taught at the undergraduate level.</p>
<p>You might as well ask why Caltech produces so few art professors.</p>
<p>
[quote]
So, Is it because Williams grads are less interested in Engg or that universities are less interested in Williams grads?
[/quote]
It looks like the OP is located outside the US, so that may be why he is struggling to understand something that seems very straightforward to Americans.</p>
<p>In short, Williams students are generally not interested in engineering. If they were, they would have gone to a different school, where engineering was taught at the undergraduate level. Most liberal arts colleges, including Williams, do not provide instruction in engineering. </p>
<p>The LACs do provide solid instruction in science and math, and so it is theoretically possible for LAC graduates to study engineering in graduate school, but in practice this is uncommon. Usually it will take a LAC grad longer to complete a graduate engineering degree, because the LAC grad will have to "make up" some undergraduate-level engineering coursework that was not offered at college.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I know in Professional schools admissions Williams is ranked 5th(WSJ ranking).
[/quote]
The WSJ rankings looked at medical, law, and MBA programs. In the US, medicine and law are never taught at the undergraduate level, and most top schools don't teach business at the undergraduate level either. The LACs don't offer medicine, law, or business as undergraduate majors, but it doesn't matter, because the top universities don't either. So the LACs are a competitive option for prospective doctors, lawyers, and MBAs.</p>
<p>But engineering is different. In the US, engineers typically do begin to study engineering as undergraduates. Most universities offer undergraduate engineering degrees; most LACs don't. So LACs, in general, are not attractive options for prospective engineers.</p>
<p>"So, Is it because Williams grads are less interested in Engg or that universities are less interested in Williams grads?" </p>
<p>Williams also has an excellent "3-2" program in conjunction with Columbia's SEAS. Participants attend Williams for three years, then finish up at Columbia for two, earning the BS there. A handful of Ephs have done this in the past few years. Also, Williams has arranged programs with CalTech and RPI, wherein Ephs can also study at these two (possibly others) for junior year. I'm on my way out and don't have time to look for the link, but you can search the Williams website and find it.</p>
<p>The 3-2 programs are unpopular for several reasons. </p>
<p>First, it takes five years to get a BS degree instead of four.</p>
<p>Second, there is almost never financial aid for the fifth year and often not for the fourth year, so the cost is even more expensive for many students, above and beyond paying for five years instead of four.</p>
<p>Third, transfering to another college after junior year at a college is not terribly appealing.</p>
<p>If you are going to pay for five years without financial aid for one or two years, you are probably better off just completing your four year degree (with financial aid) and then doing a 2-year Masters in Engineering program.</p>
<p>"almost never"</p>
<p>Very interesting. Since you've been out of Williams for 30 years, you know this how? I'm not interested in dueling with you, but if <em>you're</em> interested in telling students not to bother applying to Williams, why don't you stop beating around the bush and flat-out tell them to apply at the PA college you love so much? Your intentions are transparent to those who know your history.</p>
<p>Financial aid can always be arranged for Williams students who qualify -- even at institutions they choose during and after their third year. </p>
<p>For more reliable information from an authoritative source, contact Prof. Strait (his information is at the bottom of the link below). </p>
<p>There was a Record article earlier this year detailing the experiences kids have had with the 3-2 program, and most of them weren't particularly happy with it, as I recall. Whether financial aid was one of the objections, I don't recall.</p>
<p>By the way, it looks pretty pathetic for a parent to personally attack another parent on a freaking <em>college discussion forum</em>, especially when interesteddad seems to have been providing a pretty balanced view.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Very interesting. Since you've been out of Williams for 30 years, you know this how?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Even though I've been out of Williams for 30 years, I still retain the reading skills that I learned there. I have read a detailed analysis of the pros and cons of the Wellesley/MIT 3/2 program. The additional cost of a five year BS program and the specific lack of financial aid for the final year(s) was highlighted as a key impediment.</p>
<p>BTW, the Wellesley/MIT program is a tighter arrangement than the Williams/Columbia program because Wellesley students can begin taking MIT engineering courses at an earlier stage in the program due to the close proximity and non-stop daily shuttle van service between the two schools. It is still not a popular program, although taking courses at MIT is popular for Wellesley students.</p>
<p>I don't always agree with interesteddad's perspective either, but I will back him up on this one: 3-2 LAC/engineering school programs are rarely utilized in practice, either at Williams specifically or at LACs in general. </p>
<p>For example, this entry[/url</a>] in Willipedia describes a member of the Class of 2003 as "First participant in decades in the 3-2 Engineering Program." Don't know if that's totally accurate, but the general [url=<a href="http://wso.williams.edu/wiki/index.php/3-2%5D3-2">http://wso.williams.edu/wiki/index.php/3-2]3-2</a> entry in Willipedia lists a grand total of two participants. </p>
<p>As noted at the Williams [url=<a href="http://www.williams.edu/Physics/programs/eng.html%5Dpre-engineering%5B/url">http://www.williams.edu/Physics/programs/eng.html]pre-engineering[/url</a>] page, Williams students who study engineering more commonly select the 4-2 BA/MS option, rather than the 3-2 BA/BS option.</p>
<p>"I have read a detailed analysis of the pros and cons of the Wellesley/MIT 3/2 program."</p>
<p>Ah, so you just <em>assumed</em> that what you read about financial aid difficulties <em>not</em> with the Williams-Columbia program but at another program instead, also applies to the Williams-Columbia program. </p>
<p>I'm sure you know the old saying about what happens when people <em>assume</em> too much.</p>
<p>The "difficulties" are that the sending school in a 3-2 program doesn't usually pay for a student to attend another school (financial aid is a discount, not cash money sent to another school). </p>
<p>And, the receiving school usually doesn't give a damn. It's not like an exchange program where Williams sends a student to study at Columbia and Columbia sends one to Williams, where the dollars all come out in a wash.</p>
<p>These issues, of course, are on top of the fact that it costs five years worth of tuition for a four year BS Engineering degree. For a freshman next year, that fifth year will be about $55,000 including room and board.</p>
<p>If you would like to do the research to demonstrate that Williams picks up the financial aid for five years, including two at Columbia University, be my guest.</p>
<p>I did your research for you. Columbia does offer financial aid for US students in the 3-2 program. The Columbia combined 3-2 program is offered with the following LACs in addition to students from Columbia's Colleges of Arts and Sciences (totalling about 70 students per year):</p>
<p>Adelphi University, Garden City, NY
Albertson College, Caldwell, ID
Albion College, Albion, MI
Alfred University, Alfred, NY
Allegheny College, Meadville, PA
Arcadia University, Glenside, PA
Augustana College, Sioux Falls, SD
Austin College, Sherman, TX
Baldwin-Wallace College, Berea, OH
Bard College, Annandale-on-Hudson, NY
Barnard College, New York, NY
Bates College, Lewiston, ME
Beirut University College, Beirut, Lebanon
Beloit College, Beloit, WI
Bethany College, Bethany, WV
Birmingham-Southern College, Birmingham, AL
Bowdoin College, Brunswick, ME
Brandeis University, Waltham, MA
Carleton College, Northfield, MN
Carroll College, Helena, MT
Centenary College of Louisiana, Shreveport, LA
Centre College, Danville, KY
Claremont McKenna College, Claremont, CA
Clark University, Worcester, MA
Colgate University, Hamilton, NY
College of Notre Dame, Baltimore, MD
College of the Holy Cross, Worcester, MA
College of William and Mary, Williamsburg, VA
Colorado College, Colorado Springs, CO
Columbia College, New York, NY
Davidson College, Davidson, NC
Denison University, Granville, OH
DePauw University, Greencastle, IN
Dillard University, New Orleans, LO
Doane College, Crete, NE
Drew University, Madison, NJ
Earlham College, Richmond, IN
Eckerd College, St. Petersburg, FL
Fairfield University, Fairfield, CT
Fordham University, Bronx, NY
Franklin and Marshall College, Lancaster, PA
Gettysburg College, Gettysburg, PA
Grinnell College, Grinnell, IA
Hamilton College, Clinton, NY
Hartwick College, Oneonta, NY
Hastings College, Hastings, NE
Hendrix College, Conway, AR
Hobart and William Smith Colleges, Geneva, NY
Hofstra University, Hempstead, NY
Illinois Wesleyan University, Bloomington, IL
Jacksonville University, Jacksonville, FL
Juniata College, Huntingdon, PA
Kansas Wesleyan University, Salina, KS
Knox College, Galeburg, IL
Lawrence University, Appleton, WI
Lewis and Clark College, Portland, OR
Loyola University Chicago, Chicago, IL
MacMurray College, Jacksonville, IL
Marietta College, Marietta, OH
Miami University, Oxford, OH
Middlebury College, Middlebury, VT
Millsaps College, Jackson, MI
Morehouse College, Atlanta, GA
Muhlenberg College, Allentown, PA
Nebraska Wesleyan University, Lincoln, NE
Occidental College, Los Angeles, CA
Pacific Lutheran University, Tacoma, WA
Pitzer College, Claremont, CA
Providence College, Providence, RI
Queens College, Flushing, NY
Randolph-Macon College, Ashland, VA
Reed College, Portland, OR
Rollins College, Winter Park, FL
St. John Fisher College, Rochester, NY
St. Lawrence University, Canton, NY
Sarah Lawrence College, Bronxville, NY
School of General Studies, Columbia University, New York, NY
Scripps College, Claremont, CA
Seattle Pacific University, Seattle, WA
Simon’s Rock College of Bard, Great Barrington, MA
Spelman College, Atlanta, GA
State University of New York, Fredonia, NY
State University of New York, Geneseo, NY
State University of New York, Binghamton, NY
Sweet Briar College, Sweet Briar, VA
University of Puget Sound, Tacoma, WA
University of Richmond, Richmond, VA
University of the South, Sewanee, TN
University of the Virgin Islands, St. Thomas, VI
Ursinus College, Collegeville, PA
Wabash College, Crawfordsville, IN
Washington and Jefferson College, Washington, PA
Washington and Lee University, Lexington, VA
Wells College, Aurora, NY
Wesleyan University, Middletown, CT
Whitman College, Walla Walla, WA
Whitworth College, Spokane, WA
Willamette University, Salem, OR
William Jewell College, Liberty, MO
Williams College, Williamstown, MA
Wittenberg University, Springfield, OH
Wofford College, Spartanburg, SC
Yeshiva University, New York, NY
York College of Pennsylvania, York, PA</p>