<p>Parel - I think your story helps to highlight something --
from the school's point of view their decision made perfect sense - they had a clear explainable reason for what they did each of those years.<br>
but from the outside, what was going on could certainly end up looking so arbitrary. such different results in two consecutive years - how could an applicant assess their chances ahead of time? (unless of course they knew how many of which instrument were sought and how they compared) and that was with essentially one variable at play.
how much harder it is to begin to even try to predict or fully comprehend admission decisions (from the point of view of the applicants) when so many other unseen factors are being weighed by the admissions people!</p>
<p>Parel and edad, Couldn't agree more. Auditioning is a whole other level of risk, chance, and the The Great Unknown, requiring even greater research, creativity & risk/choice-assessment on a candidate's part.</p>
<p>And there's also no question that even non-auditioning students can proceed without extra research & creativity; but in that case, they just cannot expect to play with the big dogs on the very selective level of college admissions, & then be surprised at the outcome. Sorry to those who don't like that: it just comes with the territory. (Market forces.)</p>
<p>Let me please add that just because you have a highly qualified candidate whom OTHERS believe will get into many top-level, it does not mean that the family or the candidate believes that. Looking back on my D's outcomes now, they make sense. Prior to the acceptance packages, we felt as much in the dark as most people. I did not feel as if her results were predictable; her teachers did (they told me later), but they're not her parent. My predictions about <em>others</em> have been proven correct; I think that's because of the more objective eye, that's all.</p>
<p>I think the whole odyssey is a lot more difficult for those who may define themselves as 'control freaks,' but I believe it's the nature of the beast to have little control. To not drive yourself crazy, you have to content yourself with including alternatives & contingencies & not to make decisions based on "likely outcomes." That would be esp. true if you're coming from a very competitive region like NY or MA, which have traditionally been overrepresented in some of the top schools. Or -- and I'm not being sarcastic -- one does have the alternative of a gap year so that one can really concentrate on the app. process without current school pressures; and that also allows the candidate extra time to add college apps to the list, to reduce the mathematical uncertainty.</p>
<p>I'm really trying to be helpful here, not antagonistic. It's just the way we've experienced it.</p>
<p>Yes, but edad -some of us have kids trying to get into a specific program at a school that has several hundred apps for 10 slots, and merit competitions that take 3 kids out of a thousand and award them enough $ to attend. I understand that y'all have a tough row to hoe, but ours ain't exactly easy street. ;)</p>
<p>well........ i think that all those stats and figures are highly incomplete and incorrect for one specific reason</p>
<p>the fundamnetal law is ::**</p>
<p>Admission to a highly selcetive college is an overal picture...surely not a lottery ...here weighing is done not only for the stats ,Ec ,GPA ,acads but also to the personal parts and more abstract views like Recos.. essay ..etc.. **</p>
<p>ppl with one of these qualities think that it will go the long way getting them admitted but forget the basic rule of stepping up .. the rule which says that if u have something gr8 in ur app it will only help u rise gr8er height but not reach the destination....</p>
<p>there all parts contribute in equally to add up the required no. of steps reaching the final destination ......</p>
<p>To get an overall chances idea.. i think we still should consider the stats but however shud also rank and mark the other factors with equal weightage like character etc...</p>
<p>We have to change our perspective ..our views .. to look beyond no.s and into all that goes within the thick applications .....</p>
<p>SM</p>
<p>Curmudgeon: If your D is interested in a specific type of program perhaps there is some similarity to the audition process. For music performance, the choices can be VERY limited. In addition acceptance is determined not by past performance, but a 15 minute audition. There needs to be some compatability with the studio head and there needs to be enough openings for the specific instrument. There is a lot of stress and luck involved. The process also goes on forever - from January through the middle of March and then the waiting begins. And yes there is money involved also. Almost all the conservatories have merit money.</p>
<p>There are often few choices that would be considered safeties. There may only be a handful of schools that are a fit and few choices that are suitable and safer.</p>
<p>Yep. The way I understand some of these competitions, the assembled are required to perform essays on the spot and relatively short written tests, along with in depth evaluative interviews. (I also understand some are more like timeshare sales meetings. LOL.) Edad, I wasn't trying to diminish the difficulty facing kids in the audition situation. My only point was to say that there are all types of auditions that put a kid in that 15-30 minute make or break category.</p>
<p>just talking to a woman last night- whose son is applying/auditioning for musical theatre schools.
I'll have you know that because of legacy ( dad & uncle) one of the Ivy league schools is a * safety* for this student! mom says sure is nice to have that to fall back on!
( I wanted to tell her about CC- but she already knew everything)</p>
<p>'I'll have you know that because of legacy ( dad & uncle) one of the Ivy league schools is a safety for this student!"</p>
<p>LMAO, but since she knows everything, she wouldn't get the joke.</p>
<p>Gee all I really want to know is what are the chances of running into this mom after the acceptances are out.....for all safety schools??? That is what I'd be most interested to hear.......her wailing about )@&#<em>(#(</em>%R^*(^!@#% unfair it is and how much legacy folks get bent. Please give us all an update.</p>
<p>Is it possible this student is a "developmental legacy"? That makes things easier but I still wouldn't call it a safety.</p>
<p>Curm, nobody is implying that it is easy street for others but simply that those who are applying to audition based programs often face tougher odds of admission. What type of program is your daughter applying to that has hundreds of applicants for ten slots? Is she applying directly into the program? I am not speaking of merit aid, simply admissions. </p>
<p>Having had a child go through the audition process for BFA programs in musical theater and another who went through regular elite college admissions, both of which were tough odds, I can tell you that the odds for the audition based BFA programs were worse than for most Ivy League schools or other elite colleges. The admit rate at most selective colleges is over 10% (a few exceptions). There are an abundance of selective schools to choose from. Yes, the odds are very long, no doubt about that! For a BFA in musical theater, there are just a finite number of programs to begin with. Just about all of them must be considered Reaches. I know that all the programs on my child's list had an admit rate between 4-10%. None were "matches" or "safeties" with such low admit rates. Besides these odds being stiffer than any elite college on my other D's list, LOTS was also riding on the ten minute audition (though academics, essays and all that jazz ALSO counted). An audition is not only very subjective but is just that moment in time, no matter how many great performances you had on other dates. You may even have a cold or some such that day. Students are applying DIRECTLY into these programs and some have slots for 5 girls, or maybe 10 girls but all have an admit rate in the single digits. This is not to diminish the tough odds for others, like your D or anyone else, but I can readily say that the odds of admissions to those audition based program were more difficult than any elite school admissions my other D went through (also VERY tough) and my other D also had more OPTIONS and could add less selective schools to her list. Most BFA programs in MT are all quite selective. My D who applied to BFA programs in Musical Theater did not have a similar admissions process to other students and did not have a college list that was balanced with reach, match, safeties....it was all VERY different. I did not even discuss her process THAT much on the Parent Forum last year but did on the MT Forum because unless you are familiar with this process, it is hard to really understand or have the perspective. </p>
<p>Anyway, is there a program your D is applying to directly? a major? It will help my knowledge base to learn of what other programs have hundreds applying for ten slots (again, I will assume you mean an academic program, not merit aid type things, or Honors Colleges, but simply admissions itself).</p>
<p>no he isn't a developmental legacy- and he isn't even in the lead in his productions at school- </p>
<p>I feel like I should be more outspoken in my warnings to be cautious as I would be if I knew there was a cliff ahead on the trail- but parents just don't realize that schools are so much more competitive now than when they applied- and they absolutely don't want to hear that the school that their father and grandfather attended, might not be a sure thing anymore.</p>
<p>I have no idea of the level of his talent & as the Ivy is his safety, he is also applying to at least 10 other schools- but since we haven't had to go through the audition process for schools- I have little idea of how competitive that actually is- 10 may not be near enough.</p>
<p>I hope he gets in somewhere- it is painful to hear about kids who aren't accepted anywhere they really wanted to attend- especially when their parents are so proud of their accomplishments that they spend 2 hours on the cell, broadcasting them- when they should be watching their daughters soccer game.</p>
<p>Most of my friends with kids the age of my younger daughter however- do listen ( I assume) to me when I suggest that it is good to have a range of schools- and if you are out of state- a California school is not a safety just because it is a public school.( or some Ca schools even if you are * in state* )</p>
<p>
[quote]
I feel like I should be more outspoken in my warnings to be cautious as I would be if I knew there was a cliff ahead on the trail- but parents just don't realize that schools are so much more competitive now than when they applied- and they absolutely don't want to hear that the school that their father and grandfather attended, might not be a sure thing anymore.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Don't know what ivy your friend was using a safety - but here are some stats:
Princeton class of 2009 - approx 36% of alumni children who applied were admitted. <a href="http://www.princeton.edu/pr/facts/profile/05/07table.shtml%5B/url%5D">http://www.princeton.edu/pr/facts/profile/05/07table.shtml</a></p>
<p>At UPenn class of 2009 - 38% of children of alumni were admitted. <a href="http://www.admissionsug.upenn.edu/applying/profile.php%5B/url%5D">http://www.admissionsug.upenn.edu/applying/profile.php</a></p>
<p>certainly better odds than non-legacy applicants, but still not great odds - I guess an alumni parent may assume that those rejected just didn't measure up to the school's standards, but that their child will.</p>
<p>its hard to get through to parents who don't want to listen and think they already know. and while you mean well, it just may not be what they want to hear (or are ready to hear).</p>
<p>EK, it IS sad to see a kid being set up like ths. Let's hope there is a real safety hidden on the list. And it is particularly painful to see a kid who does not get leads in HS thinking he'll make the cut in college. WOW.</p>
<p>Another aspect that can make a conservatory audition difficult is that you may find yourself playing or singing for some of the world's best. Care to play a Bach cello suite for Mr. Ma? Sing Song to the Moon for Ms. Fleming? Whip off that Bottesini bass concerto for Professors Meyer and Robinson? Imagine trying to write that timed essay with, say, Harold Pinter and Toni Morrison reading over your shoulder, commenting to each other and taking points off if you cross out a word or fail to maintain the highest standards of calligraphy.</p>
<p>Even without a $100K scholarship up for grabs based on a 15-minute performance, that can be pretty daunting.</p>
<p>sooz, I'll pm you.</p>
<p>"I feel like I should be more outspoken in my warnings to be cautious as I would be if I knew there was a cliff ahead on the trail"</p>
<p>Based on how you described her, the parent wouldn't listen. Parents who are smart enough to have gone to Ivies, kids who are smart enough to consider Ivies, certainly have the intelligence to bother to do to thorough research about applying to college. If they choose not to do this, they will have to learn the hard way, and for some hard headed people, that's the only way to learn important lessons.</p>
<p>Agree that you should keep quiet. She wouldn't listen anyway. And if you try to tell her then Murphy's Law will kick in and her S will get accepted to his "safety" -- in which case she'll be convinced that you were just jealous and had no idea what you were talking about.</p>
<p>EK & NSM
We all seem to give this advice, and doubtfully listened to. I've seen families from west coast travel east to visit the HYP schools, and never look at the LACs or 7 sisters. They think their wonderful DTR with 2100 SATs is a shoe-in...Parents don't want to hear that their child's EC & hook is common.</p>
<p>I'm a senior applying for colleges and wanted to ask if you (collectively) thought my list was realistic. I am a white male from New Mexico.</p>
<p>Reach:
Princeton
Duke</p>
<p>Match:
Vanderbilt (legacy)
UVa (Out of state)</p>
<p>Safety:
Miami (of OH)
U of Vermont
Drexel
UNM- University of New Mexico</p>
<p>ACT- 32 (33 if combined)
SAT: 1490, W 730
SAT II: 710, 730
AP: 10 by graduation, Two 5s, Three 4s right now
Ranked in top 1% out of class of 800</p>
<p>I've gone to the International Science Fair and was awarded a full ride scholarship to Drexel (hence my application.)
I was selected as a Siemens-Westinghouse semifinalist and have submitted a paper to Intel's STS (results pending.)
I've competed in a bunch of local/regional science fairs since the 10th grade and have won most of them.
I was awarded an internship at Sandia National Laboratories, a federal nuclear research facility in Albuquerque. (I'm one of around 10 high school interns- Sandia employs around 10k people) I wrote my Siemens-Westinghouse paper based off the research I conducted during the internship.
I have a good amount of Volunteering, mainly through music, which is conveyed in my essays.
I'm president of a school club and VP of church youth group.
Also have a varisty letter in Track.</p>
<p>I hate to list like this because it creates an atmoesphere of superficiality (and sometime implied arrogance), but it is a good way to organize the REACH/MATCH/SAFETY list.</p>
<p>I visited Duke, Vanderbilt, and the University of Virginia. </p>
<p>I think I have a very good chance of admission at Vandy- my mother, aunt, and uncle went there, and during my visit I sat down with one of the engineering professors (my desired major) and talked with him for about an hour. After our discussion, he expressed an opinion that he thinks I'll be admitted and that I'll also recieve merit-based aid (as he was on the undergraduate scholarship board.) He said he'd have a research position for me if I went to Vanderbilt, both during school and throughout the summers. Plus, Vanderbilt sent me a personalized letter congratualting me on being selected as a Semifinalist in the Westinghouse competition.</p>
<p>As for the Univeristy of Virginia, I know that OOS admissions are very hard, but I was able to sit down and talk with an engineering professor who happened to be the former head of the Rodman scholars program. I had a good conversation with him about engineering and my research. He also expressed an opinion that he thought I would be admitted. He told me that I would be able to do research as an undergrad and that even if I didn't go to UVa I could do research with him during the summers. I told him about my work at Sandia National Labs and I've kept contact with him throught the process of my paper being submitted.</p>
<p>For Vanderbilt, and especially UVa, I base my "MATCH" description heavily on the personal discussions I've had with professors, who are able to forward info to the admissions department (the UVa prof told me he has done so.) If I hadn't had the extensive visits and discussions at UVa, I would definitely consider it a REACH. The other thing is, I'm applying to UVa's Engineering School, which is not as competitive as their College of Arts and Sciences. </p>
<p>As for Duke, I wouldn't be suprised if I didn't get in. I don't really have anything extra except that one of my recommendation letters is coming from my teacher who got his undergrad and masters at Duke. Duke essentially treats recs from alums as interviews. Still, Duke is very much a reach. Although I've visited, I was unable to sit down and talk with any professors.</p>
<p>Princeton is definitely a far reach. Unfortunately, I haven't even been able to visit. I will be able to do an alum interview, however. My teacher's wife went to Princeton.</p>
<p>As for the Univeristy of Vermont and University of Miami in OH, I've largely based my SAFETY label off of SAT/ACT midrange scores and discussions with alums. I don't really know if characterizing them as SAFETIES is accurate. </p>
<p>Thanks for your time and advice. As a note, I don't want to come off as arrogant at all, I usually feel uncomfortable "selling myself" so overtly.</p>