<p>hawkette:</p>
<p>There are actually considerable differences between the PA rankings and the actual overall rankings for the top 30 schools. I must admit the PA rankings match much closer my own personal perception of the relative (overall) quality of the listed universities.</p>
<p>"BIGTWIX, the rankings are for undergrad."
I know that, but peer assesment allows for people to asses the school by how they feel about the school. So in other words, the value of graduate programs can influence their overall oppinion on the school, especially if they really arent too knowledgeable about the undergrad programs.</p>
<p>And as for Ivy Econ, maybe top HYP will, or even columbia or penn might, or likely will allow better job placement in the East coast, but here on the west coast, Berkeley is usually much better known than lower Ivys, and often equally regarded as HYP. And berkeley has some of the best econ too. </p>
<p>oh and slipper, i don't even know if it would rightly be argued that ohio state is better than tufts at grad level. Ide say tufts is probably better in both, but most notably undergrad.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I must admit the PA rankings match much closer my own personal perception of the relative (overall) quality of the listed universities.
[/quote]
You're not alone. But then again, that's pretty much the point of having the Peer Assessment.</p>
<p>ohio state ranks above tufts in the major us news rankings for graduate programs (med-r, law, business, eng). don't take those rankings seriously, but the closest ranking is med-r, in which osu is 33rd and tufts is 47th. tufts doesn't have a grad business school.</p>
<p>how do the top 50 universities rank without PA for 2008. someone compile?</p>
<p>Umm... PA is far from the most ridiculous part of USNWR's list. In fact, I would consider the PA to be a better indicator than admission stats(sure, it tells you, to a certain extent, the quality of the class, but not of the education) or alumni giving. Actually, maybe PA shows how little the quality of educatin in the US really varies? Maybe there really isn't a whole lot of a difference in terms of education between Berkley and Harvard(ahead by .1 points) and between Michigan and Chicago(ahead by .1 points). Maybe, just maybe, you get almost the same level of education at Wisconsin, Texas and Wash. U that you will get at Northwestern(ahead by .2 points).</p>
<p>bruno,
A few of them really jump out at me. Look at the 5 most highly ranked private Southern universities:</p>
<h1>8 Duke-tied for 14th</h1>
<h1>17 Rice, #17 Emory, #19 Vanderbilt-tied for 26th</h1>
<h1>30 Wake Forest-tied for 53rd</h1>
<h1>50 Tulane-tied for 68th</h1>
<p>Or look at the schools that have some religious affiliation</p>
<h1>19 Notre Dame-tied for 33rd</h1>
<h1>35 Boston College-tied for 44th</h1>
<h1>52 Yeshiva-tied for 108th</h1>
<h1>79 BYU-tied for 102nd</h1>
<p>NONE rank as high in PA as they do in the overall ranking or other ranking sub-categories. </p>
<p>For those of us already lacking confidence in the value of Peer Assessment scoring, these PA numbers are a pretty good indication that the education establishment is loathe to permit these colleges to rise in the rankings.</p>
<p>RSDusty,
Many would agree with your view and this number may have value for those students that intend to pursue a career in academia. But put in context how these numbers you cite affect the rankings.</p>
<p>Peer Assessment scores count for 25% of a school’s ranking</p>
<p>Acceptance rate counts for 1.5% of a school’s ranking</p>
<p>Alumni Giving counts for 5% of a school’s ranking</p>
<p>Personally, I think that the Alumni Giving number is a bad joke foisted on the public universities and this will almost always hurt them badly (U Virginia, W&M, and U North Carolina are the exceptions). But the PA scoring is a bad joke on all of us and does more to undermine the rankings than any other number. </p>
<p>Briantheman,
The ex-PA rankings will inevitably come out and more sanity (and fairness) will come into view.</p>
<p>However, without PA, that means that some random institution could become a top 10 school if it enrolled 100 students with a 100 million dollar endowment and a sat average of 1550.....</p>
<p>
[quote]
I know that, but peer assesment allows for people to asses the school by how they feel about the school. So in other words, the value of graduate programs can influence their overall oppinion on the school, especially if they really arent too knowledgeable about the undergrad programs.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Cliffs' Notes and Translation: </p>
<p>This means peer assesment allows people who are not especially knowledgeable about the undergrad programs to offer opiniated assessments of school based on "feelings" influenced by the value of graduate programs. </p>
<p>Great! Fwiw, now we can agree on the correctness of the PA and how and by whom it is developed: a bunch of people who misunderstood they are supposed to assess UNDERGRADUATE programs they know SOMETHING about and misrepresent their qualifications.</p>
<p>
[quote]
However, without PA, that means that some random institution could become a top 10 school if it enrolled 100 students with a 100 million dollar endowment and a sat average of 1550.....
[/quote]
</p>
<p>A miniature Caltech? Oh, the horror, the horror!</p>
<p>Wisconsin and Texas-- 4.1. Really now. 4.1? Ahead of Vandy, Rice, Emory, Georgetown, and Notre Dame? How can anyone take these rankings seriously?</p>
<p>Wisconsin has top programs [top15] in almost every field of science and mathematics. I can't speak for its humanities program, but I don't think any of the schools you listed are as strong in the sciences.</p>
<p>According to the National Research Council there are over 70 programs at UW ranked in the top 10 nationally. In the The Academic Ranking of World Universities, published by the Institute of Higher Education at Shanghai Jiao Tong University,[8] the University of Wisconsin-Madison is ranked 16th best university in the world. In the Gourman report on undergraduate programs, the University of Wisconsin-Madison was ranked the third-best public university, after the University of California, Berkeley and the University of Michigan. Additionally, it was ranked the seventh-best university in the United States for overall strength of the undergraduate programs. In a 2004 study by Bloomberg Market News, researchers found that UW-Madison tied Harvard for producing the most CEOs at Standard & Poor’s 500 companies.[9] UW-Madison is second only to Harvard in the number of alumni receiving doctorates, and leads the nation by numbers of alumni in the Peace Corps.[10] The University is one of 60 elected members of the Association of American Universities.</p>
<p>wikipedia</p>
<p>k&s posted this in his thread, and I just wanted to add it here:</p>
<p>College Ratings Race Roars on Despite Concerns
<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/17/education/17rankings.html?pagewanted=1&hp%5B/url%5D">http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/17/education/17rankings.html?pagewanted=1&hp</a></p>
<p>
[quote]
2 schools tied for 14th
8 Duke , 4.4
14 Brown , 4.4</p>
<p>3 schools tied for 17th
11 Dartmouth , 4.3
14 Northwestern , 4.3
23 U Virginia , 4.3</p>
<p>3 schools tied for 20th
22 Carnegie Mellon , 4.2
25 UCLA , 4.2
28 U North Carolina , 4.2</p>
<p>
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Am I missing something or did you skip # 16 ?</p>
<p>"One problem though is that only 40 % or so of the university deans and presidents surveyed actually return the questionnaire sent to them by USN&WR. "</p>
<p>The 60% that do not return the survey probably agree that it is a ridiculous waste of time. The 40% that do return the survey probably try to use it as an opportunity to somehow glorify or elevate the ranking of their own institutions! ;)</p>
<p>Edit: Just saw this in another thread.
<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/17/education/17rankings.html?_r=1&pagewanted=1&hp&oref=slogin%5B/url%5D">http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/17/education/17rankings.html?_r=1&pagewanted=1&hp&oref=slogin</a></p>
<p>"Richard J. Cook, the president of Allegheny College in Pennsylvania, will not say precisely how he used to rate his college’s competitors when the annual U.S. News & World Report peer review questionnaire showed up in his mailbox. What he will say is, “I filled it out more honestly this year than I did in the past.” </p>
<p>“I checked ‘don’t know’ for every college except Allegheny,” Dr. Cook said, adding that he gave his own institution an outstanding rating."</p>
<p>From a post above..... "an Ivy econ degree is going to place better in the job market at the elite firms than a Berkeley business degree anyway"</p>
<p>Is the only purpose for getting an education better placement in the job market?</p>
<p>No lol that is the best part. You get a much better, more balanced, theoretical and intellectual education at an Ivy and you have better job prospects to boot. Seem like a win-win.</p>
<p>As I've always said, presidents and provosts of schools make it their job to know what other schools are doing. College is a business like any other. They want to make sure they offer the best product so people will choose them over the competition. To say that a university president isn't able to judge any other university in the world is ridiculous. It's his job to know what other universities are doing.</p>
<p>I took a class on higher education in america, and had the fortunate experience of having a guest lecture by a former university president. He seemed extremely knowledgable about the workings of the schools with which we competed with--after all his goal was to out-do them!</p>
<p>Are their problems with PA the way it is polled? Yes, but it doesn't change the fact that their is some use to the information with which it gives.</p>
<p>I'm a recent Tufts alum so I might be biased, but it never fails to amaze me how all of Tufts' stats -- SATs, class rank, retention, etc. -- are up there with the top 10 schools in the USNWR rankings, but how the PA always pushes it way down. How is it that Tufts even managed to go down to 28 (from 27) this year? It's really frustrating. The average SAT score of enrolled Tufts students is higher than at more than half of the Ivies!</p>
<p>lolabelle,</p>
<p>the same argument can be made for plenty of schools. but a schools quality isn't based solely on the statisitcs of the incoming freshman class. there are a lot of top schools--and unless people want a ranking that lists 50 schools in alphabetical order as no. 1, then there will always be disagreements. the reason tufts ranks 28 is simple--27 schools out performed it in the areas in which USNews decided to grade schools</p>