Just one more school: your recommendation

Music school central ranked Indiana #1 for opera.

  1. Indiana University Jacobs School of Music – Bloomington, IN

Notable Faculty: Sylvia McNair, Timothy Noble, Mary Ann Hart

There may be only one or two other schools in the country that are able to gather the resources to put together not one, two, or three opera productions per year, but rather, six. Students are allowed an unprecedented and unparalleled opportunity to perform full scale operas to well-attended patronage under the direction of Grammy-winning faculty members as well as musicians who have performed lead roles in the Metropolitan and Chicago Lyric Operas. In addition to being one of the best schools in the country for opera performance, the campus offers an unmatched eleven choral ensembles for students to perform works of past masters as well as those of new, exciting, and emerging young composers. A first choice school for any vocal major, IU Jacobs School of Music has an incredible wealth of resource dedicated to their fine vocal department.

Listen to the Faculty: Check out this album featuring IU faculty member Sylvia McNair performing with Andre Previn

http://musicschoolcentral.com/best-colleges-for-opera-and-vocal-performance/3/

@clarinetdad. Indiana is indeed a superb school, no doubt about it. It’s got a huge graduate program. There is very little opportunity for undergrads to perform ( something that is hotly debated in the VP world as being both good and bad all wrapped up in one.). Our main concern with Indiana for our D is that difficulty one has in actually securing a teacher/studio. It’s not always easy at this wonderful, acclaimed school. For an Opera masters it is hard to beat.

Music School Central is just a site started by a guy who studied composition. He launched it a few years ago. There is no methodology; it’s just hearsay that he collects from talking to people. Kind of like what you get here, only we don’t rank schools. It’s all useful information but don’t take rankings too seriously

So well said @glassharmonica.

I was just going to say that, the rankings don’t mean anything, someone else in this thread made a big pitch for Temple and was busy citing all these rankings as proof it was a great program (I have heard good things about the program, I am not knocking it, what I am saying is the rankings cited are bupkus, US News and World Report is especially crappy when it comes to music, their rankings for the top music schools were based on criteria that don’t mean anything when it comes to music schools).

I also am very careful when it comes to people who went to a school and knock it, especially when it comes to Juilliard and similar programs, you have to be careful about that, because it could be the person went there with stars in their eyes, figured they got into Juilliard, and they were going to be the next great thing at the Met, and when that didn’t happen they get bitter. For the record, from what I saw of Juilliard’s voice program, both pre college and college level, it seemed like it was a program full of very talented singing students and the faculty has a strong reputation. I have heard the same bitterness with the undergraduate instrumental program, and there I am very certain more than a lot of that is unmet expectations, they thought cause they got into Juilliard they would become a big thing, and found out the reality soon enough, that no school, not even Juilliard, guarantees anything.

The good news is there are a lot of strong programs out there, and no one program is good for everyone. There are also a lot of choices, with voice, because the voice matures late, you might even have a lot more latitude than instrumental students do, so you may have a lot more options, like going to an ivy and having private lessons, or maybe to a school that gives better scholarships with a strong teacher, than enter the ‘big time’ in grad school.

^^So true, Musicprnt. It comes down to the old chestnut “it’s all about fit.” But “fit” can change from year to year. A change of administration; the retirement of your teacher; the graduation of some members of your chamber ensemble-- all of these and many other factors can influence your perception of how well you fit into any school.

Thanks so much for these great posts @musicprnt and @glassharmonica. Important things to take into account when choosing a program, studio and teacher.
I also don’t really think that having a famous graduate 40 or 50 years ago should be a draw. For VP I look at teachers who’s students are getting into fabulous grad programs and getting funded. Then the next step is if these wonderfully trained vocalists are successful with YAPs, etc. It’s a long , long haul. My D has a long road ahead of her.

I am not sure why your teacher dissuaded you from certain schools. My D is a freshman voice major at Carnegie Mellon and is absolutely thrilled with her choice. She is getting a conservatory style education and a top notch, very diverse University. Don’t get me wrong, they work their tails to the bone and stress levels get high, but the program is just the right size and they become “family” from day 1. There are a few students in the class from the NYC area. They do need based aid and have a new President’s scholarship (combo need and merit based) that your stats may very well be good for.

This link is the Fall Opera performance from this past weekend. Freshman are not cast in the show and take a production class for the two Operas during the year. They so pre-show work and work running crew during the show:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8NUBJhKEb4&feature=youtu.be#t=13m

Whatever your choice, I would recommend schools that do NOT have a graduate program as you will get more attention and more roles. We were advised to steer away from places like Juilliard, Curtis, Eastman because the focus is on grad students.

Free standing conservatories give merit money, but that usually leaves a hefty price tag. For conservatories/music schools that are part of universities or colleges, look up the calculators on the financial aid sites. Some will have merit aid but many are need-based only.

I am curious if those who are familiar with vocal performance feel that undergrad vocal training at a conservatory is the best way to go. Can it work to do a BA in a college with private teacher, extracurricular performances (or off campus performances) and then grad school? What about waiting in order to save the voice, is that a legitimate ooncern?

Again I think the original poster here has an excellent chance at Ivies and other top schools with incredible financial aid, and many are in a city or have relationships with nearby conservatories. But I don’t know what might be lost by not doing vocal performance at a conservatory at the undergrad level and am wondering if anyone can respond about that.

As for Juilliard, there is a book about it entitled “Nothing but the Best.” It is a dated book that would certainly dissuade anyone from going there, with some funny anecdotes as well (irate teacher throwing things, strategies for keeping a practice room, pepper powder in ballet shoes etc.). The reputation for being grueling may or may not be true now. Some people like that anyway.

How is Purchase for voice? Purchase is quite affordable.

“Nothing but the Best” describes a microcosm of what Juilliard was and obviously, it also is focused on the outre things, the composition teacher who insists the student writes fugues, the piano student who sits on practice rooms, the cases of students trying to sabotage the instrument of someone else who is in a concerto competition, the kind of things that make a book juicy. That kind of things does exist at Juilliard (and elsewhere), but it is also a very different world today, things teachers got away with 30 years ago would not be allowed today. More importantly, the kind of kids who would do things like put pepper in someone’s ballet slipper or damage an instrument were always a minority, the image of the cutthroat place just doesn’t bear close examination, I heard the same thing about the pre college program and it was mostly a load of bs, and I know enough of the college through people who have kids there and the many kids my son knows there that the image presented is crap. That doesn’t mean that Juilliard or a similar school is perfect for everyone, it is all about fit as @glassharmonica said. BTW, for every arrogant jerk that thinks life is about competitions and undercutting other people there, there are probably dozens of kids, like @glassharmonica’s D, who care about music, love it enough to want to do it, and put tremendous effort into being musicians, taking every opportunity they can and so forth, and it is those kids who make it a great place to go, as those kinds of kids make other places, too.

Conservatories are obviously focused on music, music, music and for some kids, that won’t work, likewise because schools at the level of Juilliard admit a very high level of student, they aren’t going to be as generous as a program that wants to attract the higher level student to help make their name. It is all about fit, and there is no one best way, @compmom, that would fit every student, I suspect there are VP students who studied privately then got the MM afterwords, among other things with voice because of the late maturity I suspect alternate paths may work even better than with instrument (and that is spoken as someone who is an outsider to the voice world, others can speak with more authority). Some kids would need that immersion in music, would need to live, breath and eat it to be fullfilled and move forwards, other want a more ‘typical’ college experience and want, for example,to have a dual degree or at the least, all the gen ed courses they would have in a university. Some like my son love to hang around with music types all the time, others may want to be around a variety of students, it is up to the student. My take on the whole music training situation is that it depends on the student being talented, of course, but also being motivated to move forward and take the bull by the horns, and that varies from kid to kid.

@compmom - You said she has shot at “Ivies and other top schools with incredible financial aid.” Remember that the Ivies do not do merit based aid, and we do not know financial situation of OP.

We are taking a crapshoot with Carnegie Mellon because they are need-based aid as well, unless they have to add a small merit scholarship to make them competitive with offers from other “comparable schools.” I challenged them on that because applying to any reputable music school is just as competitive whether it be part of a private university or a state university. We believe my D’s aid package will remain comparable for all four years, but who knows. She turned down a total free ride to the University of Kentucky, which has a very reputable voice program, because she felt the conservatory approach was better for her, and it was in the context of a larger university. In addition, it is costing us just as much out of pocket to send her there for a BFA than to send her to the state university 6 miles down the road for a BM.

As a non-musically inclined parent, I had to learn the differences in the schools. What I learned and believed was that a stand alone conservatory may not be the best fit because, honestly, what do you do if you hate the program. There are no other academic programs to transfer into.

A BA is probably not the best approach because it is not a performance degree. For example, Florida State has a BA and a BM in voice, and has a large graduate program. Therefore BA students will get grad students for studio teachers and NOT get performance opportunities. And you need these to qualify for and be competitive for graduate programs.

In the end, the student (and not the parent(s), need to decide what is the best for for them, If they have true talent and drive, where they do their undergrad does not matter. It is where they do their grad work that matters, And we have been told this consistently by schools at all levels.

Please don’t lump all BA’s together. There are several BA programs that are performance programs that use full time performance faculty. UCLA for example.

And UCLA VP BA’s , get into the AVA, Curtis, and Juillard grad schools with a regularity that dispels that generalization @collegedadoftwo .

Agreed, each program is different and YMMV. That is why it is important to ask the questions of the schools. Unfortunately, we did not know early enough what questions to ask.

Here is a biggie:

What are music students expected to pay for over and above published tuition and fees?

Why ask this one? Because you may not find it on their web site. Some schools provide for everything in their tuition, but do not tell you that. Other schools make you pay for your accompanist, recital hall, computer cards top track performance attendance,

Beats me. I just have issues with “it is not a performance degree” and “BA students get grad students for studio teachers” I should have quoted the whole mishmash but I’m pecking away on an iphone. VP is expensive. AND the further you go the more expensive e it gets.

CollegeDadofTwo: The original post mentions a fee waiver and also mentions cost as a factor in school choice, if you go back and read it. My own musician kid chose an Ivy over a fine conservatory, with lots of regret, for money reasons so I wanted to offer it as an option. We know very well there is no merit aid at Harvard et al.

Musicprnt, I said that “Nothing but the Best” is dated, only mentioned it (with some humor) because someone else wrote something about that reputation, and I wanted to make the point that the reputation may be from the past.

Also, rather than expressing the opinion that there is only one right path, I was just inserting another option (Ivies etc.), mainly because the original poster mentioned cost and implied some financial challenge. For my family, although my kid got into conservatories that she would have loved to go to, we just could not swing it after my spouse had a stroke.

There are many ways to do things, exactly the point. I would still like to know if vocal performers do well to delay training. This may be a totally ignorant question but it is relevant to the OP’s questions.

That is a very good question @compmom . It may depend on what city you are in, what kind of connections the private teacher has, and how many performance opportunities there are outside of the school.

Here is a question we are finding useful, especially for BA programs… “what percentage of your grads who want to pursue a MMus or performance certificate are accepted into their top choices of programs?” Since even in BM programs, not all students go on to performance careers or further degrees in music, I think it’s important to know that the ones who desire to continue are getting enough training at the undergrad level to pursue their music at their desired level of intensity as they also mature and develop a stronger direction in music, whether voice or instrumental.

@listenmissy, while it might be a good questoin for instrumental students who tend to go straight to grad school, it is not uncommon for voice students to wait a year to go to grad shcool. This is particularly true if they have a larger voice that needs some time to mature or they decide to delay the auditioning until after the busyness of the senior year.

Singersmom, you just alluded to the desire for delay that I have been asking about. If a student might wait a year for grad school, in order for a voice to “mature”, then is undergrad vocal performance something to avoid, or take gently? I really don’t know much about vocal performance training and have always wanted to ask. In some cases, would it be better to do some vocal work but not in an intensive conservatory program as an undergrad?