Just starting to look at college - questions about voice and MT

College Majors Music Major
1

Our youngest daughter sings. (All the time). She has always wanted to sing and if asked if she wants to “grow up and be a singer”, she lets people know that she already is a singer, but yes, would like to sing as a career. She’s currently in 7th grade and coming from a non-traditional setting. (She has been in a homeschool setting but this year joined the public school’s virtual school program). I’m not impressed with our school’s virtual program as it seems to cover minimal academics. I doubt that any college she applies to will consider it impressive. I’m not opposed to her being in public school, but it’s not a good fit for her. (For what it’s worth, the schools here are not considered good schools so enrolling her for the physical school wouldn’t solve anything). (Also for what it’s worth, her standardized test scores place her roughly in 85th percentile but indicate that she could do better.)

Her current school, however, does have a choir which has opened up opportunities for All-State, competitions as a soloist, and more performance experience for her. They are also very supportive of her, personally. The high school does not have a choir, but does have a theatre ‘department’ and is also very supportive. I waver between letting her continue with public school (which would give her a “real” diploma) and privately supplementing extra academics or pulling her to homeschool again once she enters high school. I plan to schedule a meeting with the high school principal to start discussions about this decision.

What can I do to help her prepare for college? I realize that I’m asking incredibly early, but I’m trying to decide how to approach high school and what path would benefit her the most. She has a private voice teacher (one hour weekly) from a local University with a strong fine arts program. (This is through the University’s Community Music program). This is her second year with this particular teacher although she had a local voice teacher for two years prior. She’s a soprano and training classically. At her voice teacher’s suggestion, (I posed the same question at the end of last year), she started piano. Her piano teacher is with the same University program and I requested that she start working on music theory with D as well. D has been involved in Community Theater and is in her 8th year of performing (and received the lead female role this year). She has also auditioned in a larger city (about an hour away) and received smaller roles (which were still incredibly difficult to get) in bigger performances. These larger performances included 12 hour rehearsal days and numerous performances. She’s in her school choir, church (adult) choir, and church ensemble. She’s asked several times a year to perform at various local events as a soloist and usually has one a month. (I will sometimes allow 2 but I’d rather she not rush from performance to performance to performance at her age.)

Her voice teacher usually assigns a song in another language and D asked if she could attend a foreign language immersion camp this summer (Italian) for four weeks. She feels it would improve her ability to sing if she’s more fluent in that language. She has sung several songs in a different language and can tell you what the overall song is about, but she wants to ‘feel’ the words separately.

I think she’s starting to lean more towards MT but I have concerns about her ability in that area. I know that dance is important and it’s a weak area for her. To complicate matters, she was diagnosed earlier this year with a benign, but recurring, bone tumor in her right tibia. She’s had surgery twice to remove it and for bone grafts. Her surgeon said that it should go away and stay away in 2 - 3 years. So far, directors have worked to adjust the choreography to prevent jumps on that leg, but signing up for dance classes is impossible.

Any guidance would be appreciated.

2

It sounds to me like you are doing a great job! You’re providing lots of opportunity for development and are clearly conscious of time and physical considerations.

I just wanted to address the perceived school opportunities. (Obviously from my perspective, primarily strings but I have also sung in professional auditioned choirs.) I would not look to All-State and school based competitions as experiences that can’t be replicated elsewhere. All-State can give students an opportunity to work with “name” conductors, but if this seems to be missing from her development, take a look at summer camps, institutes, etc for this type of experience. It may cost you unlike a school based opportunity, but it will likely be longer and more intensive.

As a tax paying resident in your school district, whether she is enrolled or not, you may be eligible to have her audition for All State or competitions - this will depend on local rules. You can check with the school’s music department.

She sounds like she’s getting lots of performance experience already - not sure what a school experience would add. You might ask her voice teacher what she/he advises for performing experiences, more is not always preferable to limited carefully chosen experiences.

There are competitions for singers that are not school based, for example National Association of Teachers of Singing (NATS). She is young now and teachers have different views on competitions for student development. But, if you are looking for an overall picture of opportunities outside the local school system, you could ask her teacher about the possibility of such competitions for later if deemed appropriate.

3

A few comments:

1.) Concerning choice on education, you mention your thoughts but not hers (which is understandable at her age). Still as she gets older (high school) you should be sure that she is more in the drivers seat imho. My D was recommended to performance art schools in elementary, jr high and high school. I tried not to have an opinion around her (I was actually very open to the idea and we did visits except in high school where we knew the answer already). Bottom line she did not want to leave her friends. So I respected her decision in the end - feeling that if she was happy that’s where she would grow. The music and theater programs were very good at her public school but a few schools (including the performanc schools) were known to be better…oh well…

2.) I think it’s good to be doing outside work if she’s not in public school however. Performing is very collaborative. Singing may not be … but performing is. And small roles are what she should be getting in bigger venues. Some kids want to only go where they get lead roles and it’s safe. If she’s getting leads all the time she should be going where she doesn’t sometimes so she can learn by watching older and more experienced performers.

3.) A summer program at a language camp would be great! She shouldn’t be working her voice too much at such a young age so language immersion would be fun and pay dividends. My D did language immersion a few summers around that age. Unfortunately not in a language she sings in…we had no idea she would be a singer at that age…but language learning skills “translate” and are important to singers.

4.) My only concern is with the comment “she is classically trained”. She’s actually too young. So maybe you mean she’s interested in classical training? Probably around your D’s age my D finally convinced me to allow her voice lessons. Note she had been singing on stage since 10 in shows so I felt that was enough voice at the time. Her violin teacher agreed to extend her lessons for some voice practice. Over a couple years the violin was dropped (she stopped practicing) and she got a new voice teacher. At that time she sang a lot of Disney pieces and MT pieces. Maybe an Italian piece - I can’t really remember. It was not until high school - after age 14 - that she started classical training with a serious teacher. It was not recommended before age 14. So…I think doing MT is a great idea. Just as long as she is disciplined and doesn’t fall into bad habits (like scream singing …err poor belting). A good teacher would tell her not to do that.

5.). The ability to “move” is important unless she is interested in choir or concert singing only. My D did dance but never seriously. It was hard finding ad hoc dance but we actually found it with a professional dance co in the city as opposed to dance schools for youth in the suburbs. My D danced on and off but never did dance shows. She might only do some lessons in the summer for example but having some dance can be beneficial. Or as she gets older she may be able to find movement for the singer courses. Or MT shows are a good way to pick up basic choreography and movement. And my D did MT and choir throughout high school even while doing classical training. Her choir and drama teacher were respectfully of her voice and did not require her to blend nor belt. But these are things to worry about in high school not so much in middle school. For now she should focus on fun ways to broaden her skills. It’s a long road and you don’t want burn out. She may also find a new interest which is fine too.

Edit: I may not have understood fully the issue with her leg. Don’t want to sound insensitive. But there may be classes when ready that are more movement specific as opposed to dance.

When my D was in 7th grade we had no idea she would end up in classical training. There’s still a lot of time. A fun immersion language camp and maybe an MT show with friends and a little dance (if safe) is really fine at her age.

Good luck.

4

A few comments:

1.) Concerning choice on education, you mention your thoughts but not hers (which is understandable at her age). Still as she gets older (high school) you should be sure that she is more in the drivers seat imho. My D was recommended to performance art schools in elementary, jr high and high school. I tried not to have an opinion around her (I was actually very open to the idea and we did visits except in high school where we knew the answer already). Bottom line she did not want to leave her friends. So I respected her decision in the end - feeling that if she was happy that’s where she would grow. The music and theater programs were very good at her public school but a few schools (including the performanc schools) were known to be better…oh well…

2.) I think it’s good to be doing outside work if she’s not in public school however. Performing is very collaborative. Singing may not be … but performing is. And small roles are what she should be getting in bigger venues. Some kids want to only go where they get lead roles and it’s safe. If she’s getting leads all the time she should be going where she doesn’t so she can learn by watching older and more experienced performers.

3.) A summer program at a language camp would be great! She shouldn’t be working her voice too much at such a young age so language immersion would be fun and pay dividends. My D did language immersion a few summers around that age. Unfortunately not in a language she sings in…we had no idea she would be a singer at that age…but language learning skills “translate” and are important to singers.

4.) My only concern is with the comment “she is classically trained”. She’s actually too young. So maybe you mean she’s interested in classical training? Probably around your D’s age my D finally convinced me to allow her voice lessons. Note she had been singing on stage since 10 in shows so I felt that was enough voice at the time. Her violin teacher agreed to extend her lessons for some voice practice. Over a couple years the violin was dropped (she stopped practicing) and she got a new voice teacher. At that time she sang a lot of Disney pieces and MT pieces. Maybe an Italian piece - I can’t really remember. It was not until high school - after age 14 - that she started classical training with a serious teacher. It was not recommended before age 14. So…I think doing MT is a great idea. Just as long as she is disciplined and doesn’t fall into bad habits (like scream singing …err poor belting). A good teacher would tell her not to do it.

5.). The ability to “move” is important unless she is interested in choir or concert singing only. My D did dance but never serious. It was hard finding ad hoc dance but we actually found it with a professional dance co as opposed to dance schools for youth. My D danced on and off but never did dance shows. She might only do some lessons in the summer for example but having some dance can be beneficial. Or as she gets older she may be able to find movement for the singer courses. Or MT shows are a good way to pick up basic choreography. And my D did MT and choir throughout high school even while doing classical training. Her choir and drama teacher were respectfully of her voice and did not require her to blend nor belt. But these are things to worry about in high school not so much in middle school. For now she should focus on fun!

When my D was in 7th grade we had no idea she would end up in classical training. There’s still a lot of time. A fun immersion language camp and maybe an MT show with a little dance (if safe) is really fine at her age.

Good luck.

5

Edit: I may not have fully understood the issue with her leg. I don’t want to sound insensitive. Just keep in mind “movement” for singers is different than dance and may only be available when she is older or in college. Any little work on movement (rhythm, grace) would be beneficial but only when she is better.

Lol I posted twice. That’s a first. I have no idea how I did that.

6

Momofadult - thanks! I’ve carefully tried to piece together things for her that were appropriate. I had read up on All State and was surprised to find opinions similar to the ones you expressed. I had thought that it would be considered a major plus on a resume. She’s still going to audition as I feel like any experience auditioning is good for her. Also, I think the overall experience of performing (presuming she does well) in a group will be great. We live in a very small town. She would be considered a ‘big fish/little pond’. I’m trying to expose her to bigger ‘ponds’. :slight_smile: Because we’re in a small town, I think the school would be resistant to her participation without her being a student. The perception here is that those who homeschool feel they are ‘better’ than others. Even though the school isn’t teaching her to sing, they get to ‘claim’ her. (I hope that made sense). I’ll ask her voice teacher about other experiences for her. She’s enjoying choir so will probably stay in it for this year and next. I’m not sure about high school.

Bridgenail - First, you’re not insensitive. :slight_smile: In the grand scheme of things, the bone tumor is unfortunate and not fair, but won’t impact her overall health long-term. In that regard, we are so incredibly fortunate and grateful.

I’ll answer by number -

  1. I think I know what you're saying, but feel free to rephrase if I miss it. :) My oldest D is in public school, my middle D is in private school, and my youngest is now in virtual school through the public school. The girls have a lot of say in where they are educated. There are no performing arts schools where we live. The options are public, private, and homeschool. We're in a very small town which is mostly high poverty. Right now, D's options are for anything available. She is right where she wants to be. She has the option to change at the end of the school year (with exceptions made for emergencies).
  2. I agree completely. The community theatre has one performance a year. Two of our kids enjoy it, including D. She looks forward to it every year. Up until this year, she has received the lead supporting role (Sebastian from Little Mermaid, Iago from Aladdin). This year she's Fiona in Shrek. (All Junior productions). She adores children's theatre due to the number of friends there. We live an hour away from some larger cities. She's auditioned occasionally and mostly receives smaller roles/ensemble. (This is still a win since these productions are mainly adults with very few kids' roles available). She plans to continue with both venues.
  3. I agree. She's excited about it.
  4. You understood correctly. She is in classical voice training. She had been interested in singing for years, but didn't start voice until 4th grade. (Keep in mind that I love music, but am not a music person. I understand now that she was probably too young. In our area, it wasn't considered too young.) During that time, she developed a beautiful voice but I could tell that she was being pushed to sing too high. Her voice teacher disagreed with me. I contacted a local university (it's known in our state for having a great Fine Arts and Music/Voice program) and discovered they offered voice lessons through a community music program. I signed her up. Her new voice teacher indicated that D was at the younger end for beginning voice but agreed to accept her as a student. The first semester involved correcting bad habits, bad posture, and limiting her range), but her teacher said that D had strong talent and great potential. She was given a simple Italian aria for her second semester and performed beautifully. I trust her current voice teacher. She has very clear rules and D follows them to the letter. It's not unusual for people in our community to encourage D to sing higher or to belt. She politely refuses and tells them that her voice teacher needs to approve any songs outside of her range and she never (ever) belts.
  5. She has had some dancing classes in the past. At the moment, she can't jump on one leg but moves well. She understands quickly simple MT movements (what she considers to be mostly synchronized steps and turns). Something like tap dancing would be a problem. She hadn't recovered fully from the first surgery when the tumor returned and she needed surgery again. It may or may not return.

She’s having fun. :slight_smile: I worry about her at times because there are long days and I know she’s exhausted. She never wants to quit. She will sometimes look at her schedule and decide against auditioning for a certain show due to time limits (which I consider to be a responsible behavior) but loves every minute of it. Even when it hurts. Even when it’s after midnight coming home. Even when she misses fun activities due to rehearsal or performances. She said that this is what she wants to do the rest of her life.

7

I’m glad to hear that the voice teacher is limiting her range and asking to know what she sings. Young vocalists can get used by bad directors. A part of the teachers job is to protect young voices from overly ambitious adults. Same with performing for parents. Protect her from too many gigs when needed. You need to think long term. Be sure she can “come down” from performances and enjoy down time. I think the summer camp will be a nice get away from the rigors of performing and let her excel in a different area. As for tap, my D could do the very basics only. She was cast for her singing skills. The big dance numbers will be handled by dancers. As long as she can do a little shuffle if needed she’ll be fine.

8

I know nothing about voice but one of my son’s friends is in the MT program at Michigan, which I’ve come to understand is one of the best/most selective in the country. My understanding is that there is an expectation of basic proficiency in singing, acting and dance, with “exceptional” skill in two out of the three. For the dance aspect, I believe ballet is a requirement. I just saw a student production a few weeks ago and I was just blown away.

9

I haven’t read all the responses, but I have an 11th grader who has homeschooled throughout taking advantage of community and semi professional MT opportunities while focusing on music. He’s taking lessons in piano, voice, and guitar and sings with a auditioned MT/Opera group that draws kids from hours around and has many kids go on into competitive MT/VP performances in college. I think for a kid on a non-traditional trajectory homeschooling can be a great fit. My kid is rounding out the end of his high school experience with a bunch of dual enroll classes. Mostly online to keep his schedule flexible and working for what he wants to be doing.

Having a voice teacher who has experience with protecting a young voice is very important. Many musical directors do not care about that and will ask for unhealthy yelling or belting from kids. I actually know one young actress who was cast in big productions and then got vocal nodules and has not sang the same. Don’t be impressed by young kids who sound like professionals. Chances are good that they are not singing in a healthy way. My kids both work on classical and age appropriate MT songs. They are currently 13 (daughter) and my junior son just turned 17.

I think at 7th grade it’s just good to keep any and all options open. I would not be ok with taking a lazy academic route. It is possible to homeschool in a rigorous and time efficient matter directly to your students level and needs and have plenty of time for extra curricular interests.

10

I second everyone’s advice above, and it sounds like you are doing all the right things @momofmusic ! Definitely check out The Musical Theater forum here on CC, as well. Allow her to explore and have fun while she is learning and growing, and undoubtedly her individual path will emerge!

11

@MusakParent - I think you are in the Twin Cities…and I’m thinking your kid may be at the same opera/MT program my D did. And your comments not to be impressed by kids singing above their ability is so true!

Dance is important for MT. My D did the auditions and had several offers with her basic dance skills (but when I say basic that is in comparison to most MT kids - she danced on and off all styles for nearly 5 years). If the OP’s daughter is doing MT now and keeping up with dance numbers she should be fine for now. She could consider more dance/movement in the future if her leg allows it. My D was a singer/actor who danced (in the MT world). The OP’s D could fall into that category as well. For VP, dance is not a consideration for auditions. However it can be helpful in the long run for grace on stage as well as some small dance parts (i.e., Merry Widow).

12

LOL - it’s a small musical world @bridgenail :smiley:

13

I have a daughter applying for vocal performance this year so I have no idea whether my advice will be based on success or not. So take it for what it is worth. Since I am not a musician but the “researcher type” I read everything I could find and asked lots of questions to see how to help my “constant singer.” The advice I read and received was pretty consistent. Be patient. Don’t rush. Protect her voice. Allow her to develop over time. Classical singing is a long haul - like decades long.

She settled in with a good vocal teacher (with whom she likes and connects) and then we (parents, esp me) fretted if we should do more. I read about summer opportunities, camps, etc. Felt pressure that we were not doing enough. But we decided to hold off. Five years with the same voice teacher has made the college application process so much more enjoyable! And we have so much better insight into our daughters singing due to this constant person in her life. From 7th-10th grade, I would have sworn my D would be either skip college and try to make it in contemporary music or try for a jazz program. But her interests changed her sophomore year and classical singing took off. I never would have thought she would go this route. She has a bit of a Joan Jett in her so I am thrilled that she is applying to college and wanting to go.

I guess I am just encouraging you to be patient. You clearly have a talented young daughter! Who knows where that talent will take her? She might surprise you and do something you can’t anticipate today!

By the way, my daughter is doing an “on-line, virtual school” as well. It was the best we could offer her given her unique circumstances, personality, local schools and learning style. If colleges don’t like it, so what. Our kids have to be who they are, regardless of who they are. What I think (hope) will matter for VP is talent and potential in voice. I’ll let you know it May.

14

7th grade is too young for formal voice training unless she is old for her grade. Girls have only “head voice” until about age 15 so what you’re hearing is either that clear, light sound or artificially darkened. The first is fine for choir at this point, the second is wrong and will be very hard to change later on.

The community theatre children’s productions are great for her and what she should be doing at this point. If she’s going to to the MT route, she’s going to have to learn how to belt safely and the right teacher can show her how to mix that successfully. It’s not necessary for her to be a great dancer as college programs really look at the whole picture now and there are some that skew toward the singers and others toward the dancers. Ballet is the best foundation, but the orthopedic concerns must be addressed first.

It’s great for her to be doing special things but remember that every one of the kids, when they get to college programs, was a “star” in their community too, so you need to be in it for the long run. If your daughter is under 14, my advice would be to halt the voice lessons for now- no kid that age should be singing an aria at all and when she does take lessons, it should be art song based. There are a couple of excellent summer language immersion programs which would be terrific for her; start with Italian. Feel free to PM me if you need find them!

15

I am the parent of a musician and dancer, and don’t know much about voice. I skipped this thread but just read it out of curiosity. I would say that during middle school, my main concern was that they eat and sleep well enough to grow:) I think it is pretty early to be starting to build a career in voice, though I understand your daughter loves it.

There are dangers in being a wunderkind. Early successes can sometimes be counterproductive in terms of long term development.

I would slow it down, and make sure that major decisions about schooling and performing reflect a balanced approach to her life and future, with enough breadth of experiences so she isn’t identifying herself narrowly as a singer, yet, despite her enthusiasm. You really cannot assume that the passion of a 7th grader is a lifelong endeavor, so be careful to make sure she knows she is not locked in.

We used a combination of public school (mediocre at best, working class town), online classes for flexibility (Virtual High School, Aventa Learning through educere; the latter has flexible deadlines for work and is good for performers), and natural learning activities like reading for pleasure. The public school experience (could have been private if we’d had the money) was important in their feeling part of a community and being aware of options for study and extracurriculars.

My dancer, who was a professional performer relatively early (not at my urging, but her teachers’), stopped dancing at 20. My musician, who went through phases of wanting to do theater, or write, or be a social worker, and really focused in on music only for the last two years of high school, is still going strong in her late 20’s. I think there’s a message there.

Make sure the ordinary pleasures of growing up happen as well. Too much too soon leads to exhaustion and burnout. Downtime is always refreshing.

Think of the tortoise, not the hare :slight_smile:

16

Boy, I was once you- I had one that “sings all the time” too. She was singing songs when she was 18 months old- no joke. Brain was just wired for music. She started in children’s musical theatre when she was four years old and when she was in third grade, they did “Annie” and she started to attempt to belt - whoa!!! That was not going to work so I did get a voice teacher for her when she was eight years old. She took lessons for a year that included learning rhythm, breath support, piano, and most importantly… not to try to belt LOL. It was all very low-key. She also sang in her school choir in middle and high school and the jazz ensemble in high school.

You do not have to wait until they are 14-16 to start classical training- after a girl starts her period (sorry TMI) is when you can think about starting. When she was in seventh grade, my D started with a teacher like yours, that teaches at a local college . At that point my D had vibrato, a naturally rich voice, no breathiness. She sounded nothing like her friends, so she was ready. She took lessons until she was a senior in high school. Her voice teacher didn’t let her start to experiment with belting until she was a senior. It was all about mixing/covering. She is just starting to belt now in college.

When your daughter’s medical condition is resolved, have her take ballet- it is great for body awareness for any performer and if she decides to be a MT major, she will need to know the ballet terms and have some experience with it. Other than that, for MT there is no need to be a super dancer- there are “actors/singers that can move” and “dancers that can sing”. The more dance the better, but my D was just in school and children’s theatre and she picked up all the jazz/MT dance moves that she needed.

I did steer mine away from all competitions and outside performances when she was younger because that is not what I wanted to focus on- people would say “Get her on American Idol!” and I would just cringe. In high school, you can start the competitions, Young Arts, The Songbook Academy, Classic Voice Magazine, etc.- these are all legit and great experiences because you get feedback from judges. My D ended up exactly where we thought she would- she is a freshman getting her bachelor of music in musical theatre at a school where there is crossover between opera and MT. She is having the time of her life! Good luck to you guys.