My son gotten into many mid-tier liberal arts colleges and amongst those we have finalized on Kalamazoo College after much research and lot of help from CC community as well strong financial and otherwise support from K-College.
However, recently some of the top public research schools have come through with acceptance and we are confused whether we should go for the brand-name school with more research opportunities.
Specifically we have acceptance from UIUC, University of Washington at Seattle, University of California at Davis and University of California at San Diego. Berkeley results will come next week. All these are globally top-notch for Biochemistry and out of the above UCSD is the best from all perspectives except Money
After bachelors the goal is to do graduate program culminating into a PhD ideally from a top-5 program in Biochemistry or something else in Life Sciences.
To be very truthful, K-College as a place sounds like a lot of fun. Open curriculum, freshman onward research opportunity, active support for summer internships, study abroad and many weekly socializing events sponsored by college. UCSD location, weather and brand in Biochem etc. are almost unbeatable and for socializing lot to do around so we are re-thinking almost finalized decision. IN case Berkeley comes positive (high reach) that will be another joker in the pack
As for cost K is @30K overall and UCSD is @75K overall. Huge difference. 30K would be easy to do, 75K will be “felt” a little bit so to say.
We have been talking to a few friends of mine who are now professors in large research Universities, albeit mostly in Engineering. They have given a feedback that if they get a similar looking applicant for their graduate program, one from a small LAC and one from a large research University, they would give priority to large research University applicant. This made us slightly concerned, as to whether is more difficult to get into top-notch research program from a small mid-low tier liberal college.
What I hear you saying - basically - is that you’d potentially be “getting what you pay for”. I assume most of the cost differential is due to merit aid from Kalamazoo. Merit aid is a great way for middle-class families to catch a break from the sky-high costs of a four-year, residential college experience. But let’s be honest, if Kalamazoo were a better-known institution, they wouldn’t need to, in essence, “buy” students to keep their academic standards at a competitive level.
Yeah. I totally agree what you are saying. What I am trying to judge is:
Would the differential in brand name be large enough to make a material difference for PhD admissions?
No one can answer this with certainty of course but trying to see if there are any CC folks who have been on admissions committees of colleges undergraduate/graduate and give their views regarding the same.
All along it has seemed like staying within budget was paramount. Now it seems that $75K might be doable…would that require parental debt? Would it change the nature of parental retirement savings? College choice for younger siblings?
I am generally not a fan of the UC system at OOS prices…lots of large classes, competitive everything (clubs, research opportunities, getting the classes one wants, etc), expensive and/or difficult to secure off-campus housing. I encourage you both to read the student newspapers of all the schools your S has been accepted to. FWIW I see UIUC > UDub > UCSD for overall college experience.
I can’t comment from the perspective of having been a college AO, but your S can achieve all his goals from Kalamazoo. Agreed that Kalamazoo must discount its price to get fannies in the seats, but it is not because of the academics and opportunity at the school…it is merely a marketing/name recognition/popularity thing in the big picture and particularly with LACs.
Your son will be able to get into a fully funded PhD program in biochem or the life sciences no matter what college he attends. He should go where he can thrive, get good grades, get some research experience, and get to know profs well enough that they write him strong letters of recommendation. I think that will be easier to do overall at Kalamazoo just because of the individualized attention he will get. I think he will be prepared just as well for grad school at Kalamazoo as any of the big schools.
HOWEVER, I do think that going to any of those large public schools (UIUC, UW, UCD, UCSD, or Berkeley if he gets in) will indeed give him a bigger chance of getting into a “top-5” program. The people at those schools unfortunately still have a bit of a prestige mindset and his degree from one of these big research powerhouses will give him an edge in admissions.
If he attends one of these big schools, he will need to work harder at putting himself out there to get himself involved with opportunities to shine. He’ll also be competing with more premeds, which can be pretty rough. But I do think that attending one of those research schools is likely the best path to a top-5 grad program. It doesn’t matter which school he picks, and he should choose based on which one he likes the most and works best for him overall. UIUC has the edge for prestige in chemistry, but they are all super well-respected.
He will need to decide how important a top-5 graduate program is to him. I personally don’t think it’s very important, but that’s just me. What are his career goals? If it’s to be a research professor at a prestigious school, then yes, his PhD institution will matter a lot. If it’s to be a professor at a solid but not fancy school, the PhD institution doesn’t matter as much. If it’s to get a job outside of academics, the PhD institution won’t matter all that much.
He’ll need to do a postdoc if he wants to be a professor, and postdocs at prestigious institutions are not hard to get at all. That is one way to move up the prestige ladder that people do a lot. In my experience, prestige does not correlate with good science anyway, but I understand why people chase it.
Generally not the brand name of the school. However, the brand name of the department and the faculty recommender (such as one the student did undergraduate research with) can matter for PhD admission.
This is really great input! Exactly the kind we are hoping to study before making final decision. Your university ranking is very interesting will investigate further.
It will not require loans to do UCSD. It might not be possible to do it from annual income only and might need some dipping in the savings.
Thanks much for such a thoughtful and detailed reply! Yes we did not expect to get in UCSD. It was showing only @25% chance for him.
His eventual goal (as it currently stands) is to do a PhD and the follow it up with a startup either his own or work at one. MIT, Berkeley or Stanford or even UWS he can achieve that much easier.
In my personal opinion brand name of PhD institution definitely matters in corporate environment. When today when I go anywhere for giving a talk Berkeley is still the first thing they mention in introducing me. I don’t think it is correct but everyone wants short cuts while judging people
You might note that an exceedingly small percentage of those with phds will end up on tenure track ( much less tenured) at any university, regardless of prestige level. 5%? 10%?
FWIW the start-up culture in California seems dominated by twenty-somethings with bachelors degrees.
Do you have any such acceptances you’re in state for? I love the idea of a liberal arts college. I teach at a small Christian high school and many of our students gravitate toward lacs. But, for stem subjects I wouldn’t personally send my son there.
Thanks! I was talking to one of my friends in a top (but 2nd tier) research University. I was told at least in their department judging is 100 points for brand-name + research experience, 100 points for GPA, 50 for recommendation letters and 50 for personal statement. I was quite surprised to see low points for recommendation letters. This is just one department of course.
We are international. Kalamazoo the LAC we have shortlisted seems to be very strong in STEM. I think there are a few which have fairly strong focus on STEP. Wooster is another one.
Oh yes, tenure track jobs are not easy to come by these days. He’d get a professor job somewhere. But if someone wants to teach at an R1, then prestige-chasing is unfortunately one of the best ways to play the game.
I don’t know as much about start-up culture, so others can chime in on that.
The grad programs in chem at UIUC are top-10, perhaps top-5 (however these things are defined). They are particularly known for their strength in chemistry. If you asked chem professors in this country, they’d all say UIUC is stellar.
I don’t know how well that translates to start-up world. I know he could certainly get a fantastic education in how to actually BE a chemist at any number of places, regardless of prestige.
