Kalamazoo College vs UCSD: Is spending more money for research experience and brand worth it? [biology pre-PhD]

College Search & Selection
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My daughter attends Kalamazoo. She’s an English major and is loving it.

The school has a very solid STEM program and, in general, small LACs tend to provide research opportunities to students.

Of the small LAC’s Wooster is considered one of the best for grad-school bound students. I gather Kalamzoo is not far behind it.

Given everyone’s advice it’s big fish in small pond vs. small-mid sized fish in a big pond.

There might be some evidence (based on Malcolm Gladwell’s book David and Goliath) that for people in the sciences, especially in undergrad, unless you are super-top rated, let’s say in the 1-5% at all time in all environments, that going to a school where you’ll get more attention and you can shine will probably yield better results than getting into the top rated program in a very competitive school. They found that people with equal test scores in high school (overall), those who went to top rated schools vs second-tier schools undergrad ended up dropping out in the sciences or performing lackluster in their field. Those who went to a less competitive, but more supportive environment, overall, in terms of publishing and “standard” career successs did better. Those who are the most brilliant and driven will thrive in all environments. Yes, top rated programs are viewed better by elite grad schools, however, but getting into those elite grad schools is more likely to happen if you are a top performer in those programs.

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Hehe unfortunately not 100% decided yet. He is talking to researchers in Biochemistry field and also communicating with Professors at UIUC and UCSD.

Let’s see :slight_smile:

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Thanks so much for this note. It is really helpful to have a view from someone in K. Also I 100% agree with the Malcom Gladwell’s research etc. 3.5 at UCSD vs ~4.0 at K not sure which gets priority for grad schools. I feel it would be K at least for some top schools.

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His list for consideration has grown! Ha!

Seriously, good for him for doing thorough research of all his options. I’m enjoying following his journey. My vote is for K, but I am biased toward LACs (as my kid is a biochem at an LAC heehee). We just like the undergrad focus of LACs, but I see valid points being made by all the posters here.

I do think outside the academics it is important for your son to evaluate the campus environment of his options, weather, ease of travel, etc. Kalamazoo is a nice small city and I think it is a positive having both K and Western MI. The winter weather and distance to a large city may be meaningful to your son, as well as the somewhat conservative surrounding area. We’ve visited the area many times in summer and winter and my kid from a warm area of the US enjoyed the winter-activities, access to many lakes (even though they are cold to us!)… simply because it was so different. But all kids may not want that for 4 years.

It is great your son has so many options! Lots to think about. :grinning: :grinning:

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The logical fallacy here is in assuming that your particular kid is going to be the 4.0/knock the cover off the ball student at Kalamazoo (or comparable). And you don’t know that. None of us know that. Andy- if you are assuming your kid is the 3.5 at UCSD vs the 4.0 at Kalamazoo- life don’t work that way.

Gladwell is looking at populations, not at individual kids. And at the end of the day, none of us care about the population- we care about our own kid and setting them up for success.

Your kid can get a professor he doesn’t click with. Your kid could end up in a section of Orgo with some of the top math/chem students in the college-- while his roommate is in a section of Orgo a semester later with a couple of slackers and the kids who are praying they get C’s so they can drop the charade of going to med school (I had a roommate like that.). Nobody can predict how their kid will perform- 8 semesters worth- in every single scenario.

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Yes! He definitely loved K more than Wooster. Open curriculum and more college sponsored fun activities at least from social media, very approachable professors and AO :-).

UCSD admit opened a can of worms so to say :slight_smile: Brand, curriculum ranking, climate etc. etc.

Most researchers we know personally are proffs in large research schools who are obviously biased!

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I agree totally it is not guaranteed. However if he can’t be close to 4.0 at K (or UCSD) for that matter then talking about his eligibility for a top PhD program is moot anyway. Assumption here is he can be a big fish at K. If that doesn’t hold true then UCSD will not work either.

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In some sense the only scenario in which UCSD will be probably better than K is if he has potential to be a top student at UCSD with research lab assistantships etc. In that case going to top PhD program is almost guaranteed (assuming he still wants it).

In all other scenarios I feel K will be better. But that is my opinion without any experience of USA LACs and further education from there.

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Kids change. Sometimes it’s self motivated (I thought I wanted to be a neurologist, but I love
statistics more, so now I want a Master’s in epidemiology and work modeling infectious disease transmission around the world) and sometimes it’s outside motivated (kid realizes he or she doesn’t have the intensity or the passion to stay in a competitive field). To me, this is independent of the big fish/little fish construct which was really a vehicle for Gladwell to sell lots of books. If your kid makes a choice for college based on what he thinks he wants NOW, knowing that there will be lot of alternative paths if he changes his mind- that’s as good as it gets.

Do you know how many of my cohort in undergrad planned to get a doctorate? All of us !(Classics- it was a very tight-knit department). Do you know how many of us became tenured professors? One. And she wasn’t even the top student in the department my year. At age 22 you’d have described her as a highly motivated plodder. Hard worker? Yup. Brilliant insights? Nope. Highly intellectual? Not really. Doesn’t give up? ABSOLUTELY.

I took a year off to work in the training program of a big corporation and never went back to academia. Ten years after finishing an MBA I threw out the PhD application materials I had been carting around since undergrad. Many of my friends diverted into other professional degrees; decided to teach for a year and then loved it and never went back; one went to divinity school which was not a surprise at all but did not do a doctorate. Three became physicians (I guess all those years of Latin helped!) including the one who runs a prestigious medical center funded by the federal government.

Boy were we naive! But I don’t think any of us regret studying something we loved… and to watch the plodder stick with it while we all cheered her on was really very sweet!!!

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I absolutely agree with you. Kids can change and they should change. They should do what they feel like at that time as long as it is within limits as far as parents’ money splurging goes :-).

However, I feel today if he wants to do a PhD then we should try and find the most optimal path out of the available ones.

Choosing Biochemistry as undergrad may not give you too much opportunity to change but no point in hedging your bets unless you are forced to. Of course K will allow him to double major much more easily. So that is another advantage.

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Did you son get in to Wooster, too? In general Wooster is better regarded than K for research and PhD oriented students (but not by much).

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Yes. He has got in Wooster and Oberlin as well. Within the LACs he has got in he likes K the best in terms of personality fit. Of course making decisions based on information available remotely :-). Specifically for Wooster he feels other than sports not many activities around. Oberlin may be too much left of center as well as art/music focused so to say. For Wooster as well as Oberlin the curriculum is not open, which to him is biggest plus of K.

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Ahh,

Tough choices then.

If you’re looking at LAC:

Oberlin’s reputation overall is stronger than Wooster or Kalamazoo. I don’t know how it compares in the sciences or for giving students opportunities for research however. In terms of grad schools, Wooster has a sterling reputation. Outside of the midwest US, in general, few people have heard of Wooster or K, but everyone has heard of Oberlin.

Also take a look at the edowment of each school divided by the number of students. I think you’ll see Oberlin’s endowment per student is much higher than Wooster or K.

This makes a difference in resources available to the students as well as the student-faculty ratio.

Compare them. Kalamzaoo 13:1, Wooster 11:1, Oberlin 9:1

Oberlin and Wooster are more isolated. There is more to do on campus at Oberlin than at Wooster, for the most part. Kalamazoo has the benefit of an interesting, walkable city that caters to them and, of course, the much larger Western Michican University.

Oberlin is notoriously left-leaning, Kalamazoo leans notably left as well (though not nearly as heavily as Oberlin) Wooster is slightly left of center, but a bit more mainstream. Wooster also has Greek life. Ohio is a more conservative state than Michigan in general.

I would arrange for your son to speak to profs and students in his prospective major to get a feel for the departments at each of the schools.

Also take note Kalamazoo currently cannot house all of it’s students. A good 40% live off campus and rent apartments in town. Freshmen and Sophomores live on campus. Juniors study abroad for a quarter or two then come back Junior year and end up renting apartments in town for the remainder of their time at K, which includes Senior year.

Kalamazoo has three 10-week terms (they used to be quarters, but they no longer offer classes in the summer) wheras Wooster and Oberlin are on a semester system. Plusses and minuses to each.

I’m guessing K gave you the best package, followed by Wooster and, then, Oberlin.

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Ok. Thanks! K has been very responsive. Both professors as well as AO. In fact we met the AO who had come to India for marketing a few days back. K also has strong social media presence which shows a lot of activities on campus, Zoo-flicks, Zoo after the dark etc. They have the land and sea program for incoming students which seems quite unique. Overall K gives the vibe that they care and like their students a lot!

K’s AO has assured us that they will work with international student and make sure the summer research opportunities in other Universities and companies are available for them.

W has been quite aloof in terms of communication for some reason. Professors have not responded to emails. AO we didn’t contact too much.

City environment, Open curriculum, strong one on one as well as social media communications and apparent plethora of diverse activities on campus have made him lean strongly towards K. Hopefully it turns out to be as good as it is sounding before joining :slight_smile:

K does have the best financial package so that is a positive as well. Although since independently of the financial package K is preferred out of the three we have not made any efforts to work with W or O admissions office.

K is more left leaning than W? Doesn’t necessarily feel that way from social media.

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K has excellent marketing, AO and responsiveness on the whole. Land-Sea is wonderful.

Yes, K is more left-leaning on the whole than Wooster. The student body reflects it. The more athletes, the more frats, the closer to the center politically/socially as a general rule of thumb. On a spectrum, Wooster is slightly left of center, K is progressive, Oberlin is super progressive.

Feel free to send me a direct message for more information regarding K

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Thanks much. Will create a list of questions that we still have and send a message. Thanks much for your help.

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We have confirmed Kalamazoo College. Thank you everyone for your help and guidance!

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Hooray!! Hoping it’s a happy and fulfilling 4 years!

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Woohoo! What a journey and thank you for sharing with us.

Congratulations to your son!!

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Congratulations ! :confetti_ball:

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