<p>curmudgeon~</p>
<p>Dh and I would respectfully disagree with you....we do NOT share detailed information about our family's finances with our children, though they certainly have a general idea of where we stand. Call us old-fashioned (and I promise NOT to take offense ;)). My kids know that they have ALL of what they NEED and some of what they WANT. My son would have NEVER asked for this information. He is our CHILD, not an equal partner in our family's finances. ~berurah</p>
<p>
I'm with you, Berurah. I think that kids need to have a general idea of the family's finances, and discussions regarding how much is available for college should begin early in high school, in my opinion. But kids are not usually as sophisticated about finances as adults are. They may not understand the issues of saving for retirement, cost of utilities, taxes, groceries, inflation, insurance etc..... All they see is the income, which seems a lot if you only get $20/month allowance! I understand that kids need to know enough about the FAFSA to sign off on it, but it's really not their decision to make as far as how much of the family's resources are available for him. I remember mentioning to S1 at times, that he's not an only child!</p>
<p>My father made a point of NOT telling me his salary, ever. He was not a secretive man, he just considered that a very private matter. I likewise have never shared that information with my kids. Sometimes I wish I didin't share the information with my wife either.</p>
<p>
[quote]
All they see is the income, which seems a lot if you only get $20/month allowance! I understand that kids need to know enough about the FAFSA to sign off on it, but it's really not their decision to make as far as how much of the family's resources are available for him. I remember mentioning to S1 at times, that he's not an only child!
[/quote]
sjmom~
Exactly! When your child is working at the local grocery, making $6.00/hr, your salary may look enormous to them. But, they are not paying mortgages, electric bills, college tuition, etc. We absolutely DO talk to our children about finances and about what we can and cannot afford....but they are NOT privy to all the details of our financial life.</p>
<p>
[quote]
My father made a point of NOT telling me his salary, ever. He was not a secretive man, he just considered that a very private matter. I likewise have never shared that information with my kids.
[/quote]
NJres~
This is exactly how it was in my family growing up. My parents were very private about this, even more so than we are. I think they felt that our knowing would lead to either 1.) unrealistic expectations, or 2.) intense worry! <em>lol</em> </p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>We were pretty open with my stepdaughter (we are noncustodial) who promptly told her mother what my husband earned, what we had in savings and the max we could contribute. I felt burned by that; we shared some financial information with her because we thought it would give her an idea of what was possible, now we find we somehow got maneuvered into our maximum stretch contribution being the expected amount by both her and her mom. We told her we expected to contribute our share up to a maximum of X, what got heard and translated was that we'd contribute X no matter what.</p>
<p>I'm with berurah on this one, but this is an example where I don't see any right or wrong - the circumstances of one family may dictate something different that that of another. My kids have a general idea, but no specifics.</p>
<p>All this talk of sharing finances is funny to me. How are our kids to get a handle on it? First of all, there are those of us who make a ton of money that are strapped because they choose to either tie it up or spend it crazily. Then there are others that are frugal and seem to be able to save. You cant tell that by the FAFSA or the information asked on the FAFSA. I understand they do ask for you current cash position (savings, checking, etc. but that just one point in time and maybe earmarked for a specific project.) Just some food for thought!</p>
<p>I admit, I did not read whatever thread you are referring to and it must have had to do with a divorced parent not wanting to disclose financial information to their child and trust the child with that information, from what I am reading on this thread. </p>
<p>I'm not in that situation. We are married. I have to say, however, that my kids' job was to apply to college and we took it as our job to deal with the financial part. My husband took care of doing the FAFSA and CSS Profile. Our kids knew we were applying for financial aid. Our kids know we don't have the money for college and they know who/how it is being paid for. But no, they never saw the FAFSA or Profile forms...they never asked, and we had no reason to go through it. The general concepts about our money, what we have or not have and what we need to do to send them to college is known. They don't know our income. Frankly, I never knew my parents' income. I am not saying one way is right or wrong but just saying our situation. We are not hiding anything but it just is not specific information we have shared with our children. It has nothing to do with trust with the information. They know kinda where their family falls financially in the scheme of things. They know our thoughts about sending them to any college they pick and we'll figure how to pay for it. They know about the loans, the grants, and anything else related to where the money is coming from. They did not deal with the financial aid apps. This was their dad's job. Paying for college was our responsibility in our view. They learn to manage other moneys such as their own earnings, as well as spending money they are given, and so forth. Our kids know our parameters and situation. They simply did not do the forms, and we are responsible for all their college fees. We also have never gone over our income with them with specific figures. They know what they can and cannot do. They truly have no need for the income figures. I suppose if they asked, it would be fine but it has never come up, nor did it ever in my situation with my own parents. Limits are clear as to what we can afford or do, etc.</p>
<p>I have a similar problem in that my dad will absolutely not show me any financial information. It goes so far that he won't fill out the FAFSA if I have to sign it, and since we're upper middle-class, I probably won't get much aid any other way. He has also refused to sign any loans, but I heard this through my mom. Whenever I try to talk about it, he says he doesn't want to talk at the moment. I understand the need for financial privacy, but I need to be able to apply for aid and scholarships (like a recent one that asks for fin. info - guess I can count it out), especially if I can't get him to sign a loan! I would also like to learn more about money - I don't even know how to balance a checkbook. Essentially, all my options are being cut out except for going to a state college, which is an option but not my preference. How can I convince my parents that I just want to be able to afford a good college and that I'm not going to divulge their private info?</p>
<p>I now went and read the other thread on this topic and Curm's questioning about if the kid signed some forms, shouldn't he/she know the specifics of the financial stuff on the forms.....frankly, I don't recall who had to sign what but if it required my kids to sign some form, I gather my husband asked them to sign it. They did not question what was on it. They only needed to know that we were applying for financial aid and needed them to sign the applications to get it. They never asked to read anything on it, nor would have been interested. And what is the point? What in the world could they verify or not verify? They don't know the specific inner workings of our finances, nor need to. They only need to know the parameters for applying to college, how we plan to pay for it roughly and who is taking care of it. They manage THEIR money, we manage ours. We're paying for college, they are not. As long as we are paying for it and the subsequent loans, it is not that different than other bills we pay for things for them. They had no need for the specifics of the inner workings of our finances, nor asked. They saw it as our taking care of the financial aid, and for paying for college. Again, we have explained to them where the moneys would come from or who paid it or if they had savings bonds, etc. They know the general stuff about paying for college. They don't need the specifics of our income and other expenses. They know our "situation" and that seems to suffice. I see no benefit to them going over the line items on the FAFSA.....they can't verify if the info. is correct, nor do they need that information. We manage how to pay for things, not them. We saw it as US applying for financial aid. We're paying it back, not them. I don't have all these "motivations" for not disclosing our income but it has never come up, they don't need to know it, I never did with my parents, and we are handling the college payments. They are not complaining or asking for more information. The financial forms were one less thing they had to do....they forward any notices to us because that is OUR domain. They deal with going to school and doing well. We deal with paying for it. They are aware of our general financial situation with regard to college, just not every little number. </p>
<p>Susan</p>
<p>Money is the sex of our era - everyone thinks about it constantly but no one wants to be caught actually talking about it. I sort of wish any of my kids were interested enough to be willing to actually sit down and go over our family finances - it would be educational. Maybe I should look at it as a sort of "birds and bees" thing. As it is, they understand the deal with regard to college finances, the expectation that they will work and earn their own money each summer, etc. My older son in college is s l o w l y getting the concept of paying his bills, checking his bank balance, transferring funds from savings. I doubt that any of them would bother to look at the FAFSA form any longer than it takes to figure out where to sign. But one basic lesson I keep trying to teach - by example as well as preaching - is owning up to what you've done, and not trying to fool people into thinking you are someone you're not. Refusing to share my financial information with my kids would be pretty counter-educational on that point.</p>
<p>I have to say- that I don't encourage anyone to sign anything with out reading it
I don't care who gives it to you-
I realize it is a PITA but not a good habit to sign things without reading them.</p>
<p>I agree with emeraldkity. People should at the very least have a basic idea of what they're signing.</p>
<p>I don't know what the history of fraud convictions relating to fafsa is, but I suspect the student would not be held responsible for a parent's false income statement beyond paying back grants and some fees. Penalty or no penalty to the student, the agreement is that if you want financial aid you need to fill out the form and since it is signed by the student, proper practice would include them reading the entire form and making sure they understood it. If you don't want your child to see the information, not applying is an expensive option.</p>
<p>Should Fafsa request to see tax information, it is not just the students' information that is requested, it is the families. </p>
<p>I have shared financial information with my children for so long, I don't know when I started. I am sure that it came up in bits and pieces: when my son wanted basketball shoes in middle school, and before that when the kids wanted to live at Disney World. During high school it came up when colleges were discussed and summer jobs were encouraged. So I agree with Cur that the kids should know something about the family income and as much as possible about documents they are asked to sign.</p>
<p>OK, a few comments here.</p>
<p>First, as a divorced, custodial parent -- my ex, who is easily able to earn more than me, is perennial "broke", will contribute nothing for my kids' colleges, and is habitually in arrears with child support payments. If the guy knew how much money I had in the bank I'd never get another dime from him - worse, he would want to borrow from me. He'd just rationalize and decide I didn't need it. I happen to believe that he ought to contribute something to his daughter's support, even though I figured out 10 years ago that I could never count on him for the money, so I learned to budget without it. I'm a hoarder who spends practically nothing on myself, so I've managed to accumulate a little nest egg even with a marginal income. It's not a matter of trusting a kid with the information - its the reality that it is difficult and grossly unfair for a child to be put in the position of being given information by one parent that he/she is expected to withhold from the other. (What's the kid supposed to say when dad asks, "does your mom really need the money right now?") My ex, in fact, does not want me to tell the kids when he is running behind on child support or to tell them how much he owes me -- and as much as I would enjoy putting the blame on him every time I had to say no to a purchase, I actually agree with him that it is better not to put the kids in the middle of our financial tug of war. And - though it doesn't apply to my situation -- once there is a remarriage and step-parents are added to the mix, it can be playing with fire to allow the kid to become the repository of financial information. </p>
<p>Second - I'm self-employed. It happens that I'm a freelancer with a low-overhead operation without any big expenses, but if I had a more typical business (with employees, equipment, inventory, etc.) - I don't think I would want my kids perusing my Schedule C. I mean, if I had employees, would my child realy be entitled to know what I pay them? I'm not sure a kid would be vary happy to see that moms' employees got a raise or bonus in the same year that mom is insisting she's short of funds that the kid needs to attend the college that offered the most generous merit aid.... but I don't know of any employees who think they should forego compensation because their boss happens to have a kid going to college. These are the types of decisions that business owners need to make without involving their kids. </p>
<p>Third, there is a lot of information that needs to be reported to IRS and hence on the FAFSA that doesn't represent true income or assets. For example, back when I had business partnerships, I would get K-1's reporting "income" that I never in fact received. This reflected my "share" of partnership profits that had in fact not been distributed, but were reinvested into the business or held in busines accounts. Similarly, capital gains & losses don't always reflect the true situation; you can have a "loss" when you've made money and a "gain" when you are losing. Unless a kid is very sophisticated, this sort of stuff can require a lot of explanation and can leave the kid with a very distorted impression of the parent's real financial strength. </p>
<p>Trust in a family also involves respect for privacy, and there is a realm of privacy around how each family member handles their money. I don't know why FAFSA is structured around the idea that parents should pay for college for children up to the age of 24, and that the children should be held responsible for reporting the parents financial data. Its a stupid system - if the kid is considered a "dependent" for purposes of financial aid, then the parent should be the one to fill out the form; if the kid is "independent" then no parental information should be needed. As it is right now, I've got a 22-year-old who has been self-supporting for 2 years, doesn't live at home, and has no reason whatsoever to need to know about my finances -- but the law requires that my information be included on his FAFSA. </p>
<p>I'm in the camp that tells my kids what they need to know, including how much I feel I am able to contribute to their college... which really has absolutely nothing to do with whatever the FAFSA EFC is. FAFSA doesn't take into account any of the real life problems we all have to deal with: uncertainties about employment, elderly parents or other relatives needing financial help, medical expenses, consumer debt, back taxes owed, etc. I'm not going to burden them with what they don't need to know. </p>
<p>I'm sorry for any kids whose parents are noncooperative and also refuse to fill out the forms -- but that's not what we are talking about here. We are talking about parents who elect to fill out the forms for their kids rather than have the kids become a conduit of information about parental finances.</p>
<p>I will restate what I wrote on the FA forum:</p>
<p>I talked to my D at the beginning of the process using a lot of financial aid calculators to get a ball park idea of where we stood financially. I also told her how much I was willing to payout/borrow regardless of what the EFC would state. </p>
<p>We also talked about how much she would save/put aside to help out. After that conversation, D did not care and personally I felt she no longer had a need to be involved in the process. </p>
<p>She doesn't feel slighted by this, or makes statements like How are children supposed to learn about financial matters in the family income is shrouded in mystery because my money is not her money (and she happens to be very good at being fiscally responsible and handling money beecause she has been handling her own money since she was 12 years old ). </p>
<p>I look at it as 2 issues: </p>
<p>1.Is it important to let your kids know how much you make, have in the bank, how much debt, what you pay out important ?</p>
<p>or</p>
<ol>
<li>Do you basically need to let your kids know at the end of the day how much you can afford or are willing to borrow toward their education?</li>
</ol>
<p>to me #2 is the important issue and the one after everything has been said and done is the one that most families is going to operate from.</p>
<p>This is the conversation that needs to happen before anyone brings the hope of a college to the table for discussion.</p>
<p>When it is all said and done it really is not an issue of what you have or what you make, the more important isssue it is going to be what one can afford or are willing to pay. </p>
<p>We recently had a big discussion with a parent who made 160,000/yr and said that he will only be able to afford to pay $10,000 even though his EFC says he can afford to pay $40,000. I know a lot of people who look "good" on paper but are cash poor. How one looks "on paper" does not automatically correlate to how much a person has in their pocket after the bills are paid.</p>
<p>Regardless of what you, I, his kid or the college thinks, is his financial situation or his postion on how much he is going to pay change? most likely not. </p>
<p>Is foot stomping by the kid, listening to other CC parents ask why he doesn't have the money all of the sudden going to make him get the money? Nope</p>
<p>The other side of the coin is that there are families that make very little money and move heaven and eart (rack up OT, debt, work second jobs, do with out) just so they could pay for their kids education. </p>
<p>Should you child be constantly reminded for feel guilty about the sacrifices that you are making for them and have to wear it like an albatross around their necks? Most of us parents will say no, because feel that we do this becasue we love them and want the best for them, and don't consider it sacrifice.</p>
<p>In a perfect world and perfect situation, people would/could fully disclose, pay what they have to pay and call it a day. One thing you find out especially when it comes to money there are not perfect or ideal situations. </p>
<p>There is really no right or wrong answer as families are going to do what is best in their situation and that includes the decision whether or not to fully disclose.</p>
<p>Years ago, when I applied for FA I know my family felt it was important for me to know the details of their finances, so that I would understand the ramifications of work-study, loans I'd be taking out, and more. </p>
<p>Fast forward to current times. We're not eligible for any FA and S never had to sign forms. But I don't imagine a minor can be legally responsible for signing these documents. So, doesn't the issue really just come down to the same thing for everyone, that is, how much do we feel that parent's finances are any of the child's business?</p>
<p>"I don't know why FAFSA is structured around the idea that parents should pay for college for children up to the age of 24, and that the children should be held responsible for reporting the parents financial data. Its a stupid system - if the kid is considered a "dependent" for purposes of financial aid, then the parent should be the one to fill out the form."</p>
<p>Calmom, I agree.</p>
<p>For us, it's not a matter of trusting our kids or not. H and I see it as quite unnecessary for our kids to know our income. It took us 30 YEARS of ups and downs for us to get to where we are, and even the smartest 18-year-old could not put that into perspective.</p>
<p>What they do know is how much our monthly heating, cooling, health insurance, mortgage, and water (YEAH, CUT OUT THOSE LONG SHOWERS!!) bills are. And that I believe is far more important, so they are actually flabbergasted at how much moolah it takes to survive.</p>
<p>My 10-year-old knows that even though I can afford to buy her UGGS, there is no earthly reason for her to own footwear that costs more than mine :)</p>
<p>Sybbie...I had read your fine post on the other thread and couldn't agree more with you. You expressed it so well. A child DOES need to know what you are prepared to do as far as financing college but has no need to know the finer details of the parents' finances. My kids frankly have never asked and it is not like we mean it to be a big secret but they see it as our taking care of this end. They know the college financial picture but not every detail of our income and expenses. I agree with Calmom also that since the parents are paying for college and are responsible for that, it makes logical sense for parents to fill out forms to secure the aid. My kids aren't privy to our car loan applications or stuff like that and don't need to be. Same with for this. They know where the money is coming from for college and the general information that they need to know. They haven't asked further questions and I'd be inclined to answer any they had. I honestly don't think they have any interest in interpretting the FAFSA or tax returns and the like. They surely have no way of validating that information. That really is our domain/job. It is not like I want to keep big secrets but they have no need to know more than they know now and don't seem to think so either. The part that they need to know about how/who will pay for college, they DO know. The rest is not really relevant to their lives at this time. </p>
<p>As far as managing money, I also agree with you, Sybbie. My kids have earned money and they also manage that money, including checking accounts. They also "manage" allowances we send them in college. They know of any moneys put aside for them for college, and the like. They know, for example, when they received Savings Bonds as gifts, that these were saved for their college education. So, how college is paid for is out in the open. That's the part they DO need to know, but not every other aspect of our financial management.</p>
<p>I never considered the financial aid as something my kids were taking care of or responsible for. Perhaps they did have to sign something, I don't recall. One was sixteen, one was seventeen at that time and even in subsequent years, we still see the applying for and the paying for the college loans as our responsibility. And since it is OUR responsibility (at least it is our choice that this is the case), then really the logistics of filling out forms and paying them back fall in our hands. Our kids see it that way as well. They know we are taking care of that, so had no questions about anything on forms. </p>
<p>Susan</p>