<p>Does anyone else think our top students are working too hard? In my D's case she is both a top student and an elite athlete and a pretty good musician. It's all too much. I think she should reduce the number of ap's she'd like to do (close to 10 I'd guess) and just do honors and a few aps (probably 5 or 6 total). IMHO what's the rush? She's a great student and a motivated learner. Any college or uni would be lucky to have her. Is being one semester ahead of the honors kids worth the stress? If she were willing to quit or compete at a lower level in her sport it would be one thing, but that isn't in the cards for us. She is a likely recruited athlete and I think a 4.0 (or close to it, if her grades continue at their current level), decent SATs, a reasonable amount of aps is enough. If a school expects more she should look elsewhere. Any thoughts?</p>
<p>Path - My D's prep school counsels five hours of homework a night, and that's on top of four required ECs per year. Real ECs, like theatre, begin at 6 PM as not to conflict with the required ones. So yeah, I hear you on students working too hard.</p>
<p>As for cutting down on applications, you might want to do a little investigation before making that decision. Any college may be lucky to have your D, but unless she's recruited or at least 100 SAT points above the 75th percentile, nothing is certain. If your D needs money to attend the picture is even murkier.</p>
<p>Good luck with your D's applications.</p>
<p>I agree, path1. I think the stress top high school students are under is insane, and I don't know how they make it through--and then go on to do it again in college. (Of course, some of them don't. My older son has met some who become burned out by college and turn to drink and play, ending up dropping out or at least getting into serious academic trouble.)</p>
<p>Fortunately, we do not live in an area that stresses academics too much. My son is homeschooled and attends high school part-time. The school he attends only offers 5-6 AP classes, and I think English is the only area that has Honors classes. He will end up with one AP class, although he will have a couple community college classes, as well. Because he loves music so much, we chose to go easier in other areas, allowing him time to pursue music, which is a very time-intensive pursuit, since he has two bands, one orchestra, and a choir to take up his time, along with private lessons and practice. (all of his choice) He chose to take the SAT once, and SAT II's once, and he did very little study for those tests. His scores were not Ivy League level, but that is fine with us. He is quite happy with the school he will be attending.</p>
<p>I think parents and kids need to sit down and decide what is really important to them. Will that Ivy League education be worth all they have given up for it, not just in terms of money, but in terms of hours and years of their lives, working so hard to get into the school? Are they taking the AP classes because they love to learn, or just to make their transcript look good? Are they in EC's they are passionate about, or did they think those would sound good in their resume? A student who does something from internal motivation is far less likely to burn out than one who is doing it from parental pressure or to try to win the gold ring of Ivy acceptance. </p>
<p>I'm just glad I am not a high school student today!</p>
<p>Totally agree.
When I was in HS, all we were expected to do to get into a "good" college was to have good grades, good SAT scores and maybe join a club or a team. Now our kids are expected to have all A's, including multiple AP classes, have top SAT scores, be an officer of a club, capt of a team, perform community service and on top of all that they are expected to hold a job so they can make the student EFC contribution. Of course, with all the spare time they have, they are supposed to end world hunger, cure cancer and bring about world peace.
God forbid a kid actually spends a summer being a kid just lounging around and maybe going to the beach with friends. Can you imagine a kid ruining their life by doing something like that????
Our children may have it easier as far as technology goes and as far as things provided for them that we may not have had, but they certainly don't have it eaiser when it comes to expectations.</p>
<p>The top 5% or so of kids are working way too hard, the rest of American youth is less motivated than a welfare mom at a job fair.</p>
<p>I've told this story before but it might help others. Going into her sophomore year, my daughter was on track to be one of the top students in her class. She'd signed up for one of the most demanding AP classes in her highly demandng school and was in all-honors for her other classes (well, except for math. :) ) On top of that, she commutes 30-45 minutes each way to school and had quite a few extracurriculars to try to keep up with. </p>
<p>By October, it became clear that she was about to go under with everything going on. She started loosing weight, was up most of the night trying to get everything done, she started bursting out into tears for no apparent reason.</p>
<p>But, I didn't listen to her. I kept pushing her, nagging her to do more, telling her that if only she were more organized she could fit it all in.</p>
<p>Then, in March, one of her close friends committed suicide. </p>
<p>While this dear girl had other problems, she had been on an even more intense schedule than my daughter and seemed, by all quantifiable measures, to be thriving and succeeding, a top student, a perfect daughter, a talented girl. I will never forget the time I asked her early in the year how she was enjoying school. "I go home and cry every night," she told me. I thought she was kidding or being overly dramatic as teens are want to do, but, of course, as we all later found out, she wasn't.</p>
<p>M's suicide was a huge awakening for me as a parent. In the after math, my daughter spiraled dangerously close to total collapse. She was simply exhausted from the work, the stress, and the emotional ramifications of finding out that someone she thought was doing a great job of handling it all, her friend, hadn't been.</p>
<p>It was very hard for me to stop driving my daughter to do more, be more, achieve more, but I knew that, for her sake, I had to. So, she enrolled in the honors US History and honors English track for this year instead of the AP versions. She took another year of art simply because it was fun. I let her drop the extracurriculars that she didn't really care about and was only doing because she and I thought they'd "look good" on college applications. And, perhaps most importantly, I stopped nagging her about getting her homework done. </p>
<p>I just quit being super mom trying to make my kid into super kid. Period.</p>
<p>The result? This year has been such an amazing year for my daughter.
She has time to just hang out with her friends now, and she has a boyfriend (always important when you're 16 years old). She has time to think about who she is and what is really important to her, and, to my surprise, has gone in some new directions with her extracurriculars, interests and career plans. And, those grades that I worried would just plummet if I didn't stay on her back constantly? She has done wonderfully this year and is enjoying school and learning once again. In fact, she now feels ready, and I agree, to tackle 3 AP classes next year with renewed self-confidence. Most important, I hear her singing in her room again, a sound I never heard during the darkest days, and that is worth its weight in gold to me.</p>
<p>Now, will she be opening fat envelopes from Harvard, Yale or Stanford next spring? Nope, she won't even be applying to those schools. However, she will, I'm sure, be opening some thick envelopes from great schools most folks have never heard of where she will get a terrific education and enjoy life. I'm fine with that, she's fine with that, and I believe we are both all the better for it.</p>
<p>Last year's events have shown me two very important things: life is short and it is OK to decide to get off the roller coaster of constant striving and pushing for the next level of success if the roller coaster is making you sick, and, two, sometimes being a good parent means refusing to buy your kid a ride on said roller coaster.</p>
<p>Great post Carolyn. I hope that it gives us all perspective. Although I wish my S could become a little less laid back! LOL!</p>
<p>Ah Carolyn, I joined about the time your daughter was starting sophomore year. Not only has she learned and grown, but so have you. Good job. Thank you for posting. It helps me keep perspective when people like you post. My D is doing ONE EC that takes up any time at all (some other piddly ones that take no time). Every once in awhile I think she should be doing more. But then you or someone else will post and I'm okay again. D is happy. She prances through the house singing. She made scones with her boyfriend last weekend. She will be going to a good college. Life is good. </p>
<p>She has kind of loaded up her schedule (academically) for next year though, and I'm a little worried. Stay tuned . . .</p>
<p>A well-stated reminder...We only want them to "succeed" so that they'll be happy.</p>
<p>Carolyn, I joined after this ordeal for your D, you and your family. I had no idea. What perspective you are able to share. I, too, worry that my junior D is overextended with the usual. The already busy life is made more stressful with SAT, ACT and AP prep and testing. I am thankful that D's school does not offer that many AP courses b/c she would surely feel obligated to take them. I had to bite my tongue when D came home last month so proud she had landed a job - something she did on her own with no one nagging her. All I could think was - Are you kidding me? How are you going to add 15 hours of work to your demanding courses, two sports, piano, etc. etc. and get your prep for tests in.....Well, it has been so much fun for her. She has managed to reprioritize and figure out what matters and really enjoys the independence of working b/c she wants to and it is all hers. We both reassure one another that there will be schools that will want her for the way she is. We will find them! I read your posts on schools not as well known with great interest. I have done further research on many you have discussed and thank you for having the power of your convictions and helping others, like me, to get there too.</p>
<p>Carolyn -</p>
<p>Incredible post. I'm trying to wipe the tears from my eyes so that I can type this response, but if anything's misspelled, you'll understand why. This is another one of those posts that ought to be required reading for ALL posters her on the Parents Forum.</p>
<p>Dear Carolyn,</p>
<p>Thank you for that moving story. It helps to remind us what is really important.</p>
<p>My best friend has a great way of putting it: instead of thinking that the world should be your oyster, decide that the world should be your clam. Oysters may be more prestigious but clams are delicious too! </p>
<p>If I look around at my friends and colleagues, I can see that most of the happiest and most successful did not go to the most prestigious schools. (And I live in a college town where many people have higher degrees.)</p>
<p>Wow. Thank you so much for sharing that, Carolyn. I joined the board too recently to have heard this story. It must still be painful for your daughter to think of her dear friend. So glad to hear she is doing well in spite of the trauma of losing a friend. What a relief for you to see your girl happy again, but what a lesson for us all.</p>
<p>Yes, path1, many kids are far too overcommited. Some kids do thrive with a lot of activity, but many others don't but feel like the SHOULD, and they ruin their mental and physical health trying to be something they're not. In many cases the pressure comes from the parents, even if they don't realize it. Kids want to please, and when we comment on how amazing so and so is because they are this,that and the other thing, our kids no doubt hear the implied pressure for them to do the same.
I've had to watch it within my own family -comparing the activity of one to the other. It took me a year to get over the fact that my son didn't want to do a sport in highschool. We felt he should. He didn't think he could handle it, time-wise, and just wasn't that interested. I know he felt like he was disappointing us, but thank goodness he listened to his own heart instead of trying to make us happy. During the time he would have been on the playing field, he spent time developing his artistic side, and has been very happy and engaged in other areas as well. We came around eventually. We all have to learn to listen to our kids -they do know how to make good decisions for themselves, if they are given the space to discover them.</p>
<p>Carolyn,
Thanks for sharing. I've tried to push my daughter, but she just ignores me. Somehow she's doing just fine on her own, and I've switched to gentle guidance instead of pressure. I guess she's just a lot smarter than her dad.</p>
<p>Carolyn - I too might have dismissed the "I go home and cry every night" statement. I hope you haven't beaten yourself up over this but mostly I feel for those parents who lost their daughter. I'm sure they meant only to do their best for their daughter, as they defined it. I agree, we all ought to read this again and again. This is the reality behind all the threads on why elite schools should never be the be all and end all. </p>
<p>I spent the first 14 years of parenting vowing never to push my kids, to allow them the benefit of recovering from boredom on their own and to give them plenty of unscheduled time. I had to be honest that I hoped they could go to Princeton but I made an effort never to force them to be anyone they weren't. I sent them to an alternative grammar school where they didn't even get grades for goodness sake. </p>
<p>Then along came high school. That first semester of straight A's was a wonderful surprise. The second like a drug. The third and it's an addiction. The PSATs and you're mainlining. </p>
<p>Now my D, the dealer responsible for my habit, is a robust kid who thrives on stress. One meltdown every 2-3 months and then she's back on track and she looks for more. She is worse with nothing to do than too much. However, my S is completely different. Some of you may remember my posting about how to make sure he could get into Stanford, his expressed desire.</p>
<p>But the reality is he needs his time on the couch. Even as a little baby too much going on would send him into tears of overwhelm. And don't get me wrong. I don't mean I need to coddle him. He's now 15 and taller than me and too cool for school but still, that baby is in him somewhere. I have stopped the "do this to get in Stanford" litany probably none too soon. Sure, I'm a mom, I still urge him to give new things a try. But I am not going to have him crying every night - or doing whatever the boy equivalent would be. I just feel so strongly that we have to walk a very fine line as parents between urging them on and holding them tight.</p>
<p>Thanks for the post, OP and Carolyn.</p>
<p>in our high school, there are couple suicides a year because of the enormous competition and stress. I was pretty amazed when i entered freshman year and had a teacher come in talking about suicides and how to spot for any signs. i asked why, and they said suicides in this school have occured. I was under hUGGEEE stress in my soph and junior year after my crappy freshman because i knew in order to succeed in life, i must go to college. yea, when senior came, i thought i could relax a little, but NOO!!! all AP's means more work than ever. ahhh!!!!!!!! will this ever stop. this nation has become more competitive and back in my mom and dad's day, they said grades could get you in. now, you need to find a cure for AIDS to get into a college. </p>
<p>overall, i agree...my friends have shown fatigue and have chronic ulcers because of the amount of coffee they drink. its ridiculous...</p>
<p>My D is nuttier than a Claxton Fruitcake. A normal every single day (including ten minutes ago) conversation at our house goes like this: "Hey, do y'all want to go get pizza tonight?" "Shush, Dad-Be quiet. I'm doing my AP Calc review and I still have 2 hours of AP Physics homework and I want to at least read the SAT review book this time and it's a week away. I still have my conditioning workout to do and I have to go tutor _____ or she'll fail and the coach will strangle me. I was late getting home because I was helping ______ try out for Drum Major for 1/2 an hour marching in the parking lot and it's already 93 degrees out there and I'm covered in sweat. I have one spare hour this week and I'm going to use it watch Alias. I have to get up at 5:00 a.m. to do my heavy weights and running, and then shoot hoops for 30 minutes so I can make it to tutorials by 7:00. Oh,and I just told coach that while I was recovering from my surgery this summer I would coach the JV summer basketball team." "So, then how about Chinese?" "AAAAAAAAHHH, M-o-m. Dad's killing me in here. Do something with him. Please.You married him, you deal with him."</p>
<p>The answer is yes. They work too hard, but when it is THEIR motivation and THEIR goals-I don't know . I have done my best to entice her to slack off, but she is just not wired that way. Often, I wish she was.</p>
<p>My daughter was hyper-motivated, always busy with several very time-consuming EC's, always working way too hard in High School - ended up Val. College has been a relief to her! It's a wonderful, challenging university - but THANK GOODNESS, it's not as stressful as high school was. My darling rising junior son is another matter. Hours on the couch playing computer games, does his homework in an hour or less each night, one minor EC. It's a completely different parenting experience, and it will lead to a completely different (although, probably not worse) college experience.
I know my daughter worked too hard in high school - but she was motivated and focused and organized, and juggled all the responsibilities at once. I just don't think that that could have gone on much longer without someone (her or me) having a nervous breakdown. Thank goodness high school is only 4 years- and that most of the stressful stuff doesn't happen until junior year!</p>
<p>unless her workload is creating mental or physical problems, you would be stifling her.</p>
<p>Gosh, Carolyn. I'd never read that story. Truly heartbreaking. Waht a thing to happen, to live through with your child. Big cyber hug from teh South Pacific.</p>
<p>I can relate to the singing. Mine sing when they are pleased with themselves. My youngest has no qualms about belting out a song in front of his pack of friends. Oh no, don't conjur up frecklybecky or soozievt's D. He is positively tone deaf and could care less. </p>
<p>I liked Kluge's post: </p>
<p>
[quote]
All the things which <strong>don't</strong> help him with his college application actually give him a leg up in life.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>But in truth, we haven't mainlined (loved that expression Alu) in the top 5% because our boys aren't having it. They refuse to put in 18 hour days. </p>
<p>The architect Phillip Johnson used to close his office at 5 pm. He said, "If you can't do it in eight hours, you can't do it."</p>
<p>Something to be said for that outlook.</p>