<p>Hey,</p>
<p>If you are doing a lab courses (i.e. Gen Bio, chem.. etc.), how many nights during the week on average do you go to your science lab to perhaps do the experiment again or get some additional data?</p>
<p>On that note, if you are doing an independent research with a professor, how much time does that consume during the evening/night timings?</p>
<p>Thanks.</p>
<p>our course labs are not open at just any time so students cannot show up to simply get better data</p>
<p>with independent research usually you want to contribute 10+ hours a week of effort showing up 2-4 times a week -- i spent anywhere from 10 to 20 hours a week, and sometimes after finals were over i spent full days if it was crucial to do so -- usually people show up in lab more frequently before their midterms or finals, and when tests begin they disappear from the lab for may be an entire week or two -- i'd also come on weekends to make up for it -- suppose i had exam on wednesday or friday, so i'd study for it and forget about the lab during the week, but then show up for more time afterwards on weekend when i have rested after the exams -- you can do this only if you're not working under someone's direction all the time</p>
<p>prof's usually don't mind as they understand you are there volunteering for the job and that academics is you main focus -- but when you are starting out they'd like to see you appear when everyone's around, so you're not alone in lab -- so you cannot show up very late in the evening</p>
<p>kihyle, did you find your grades suffer because of the lots of time spent on research? I want to do undergraduate research but if it means huge time committments which could be better spent on my studies, then I don't want to do it.</p>
<p>try doing undergraduate research during the summer. I think doing it during the school year takes away time from your studies. Usually profs have a lot of openings during the summer too ( if they work during the summer).</p>
<p>i saw my grades suffer a bit but not because of time a devoted to research -- material got harder, more in depth, after the first two years of college, so i had to spend more time studying, which i wasn't used to</p>
<p>your certainly have to take classes out of your way during academic year if you want to do research -- by the time i got to junior and senior years, i only had to take 2-3 classes each quarter, so i could afford continuing research during academic year -- two quarters i took only one class to be able to do things outside of academics (to which i devoted 30+ hours a week) -- also there are people who fit 4 classes per quarter, work, research, and various student organizations into one week, and still got high grades, so it is doable if you're really motivated i guess</p>
<p>people in lab usually understand if you have midterms or finals coming, so you don't have to show up -- especially if you're volunteering, but even if you're working for a wage you can work something out with them</p>
<p>Lo1603, summers are great for research -- but if you want results, you need to put in a continuous part-time effort -- summers are great to either just learn some skills if you're just starting out -- or to do a short-term project -- plus you don't want to work full-time in lab during summer -- especially here in california where the summers are so great it's a shame if you get to spend 40 hours a week indoors at a bench</p>
<p>for starters, just learning some skills takes months -- if you want to understand theoretical underpinning of your work (which is what you always need to do), you also face reading some literature -- all this fitted into 3 summer months will not leave you much time getting results -- yeah, there are labs where if you're fortunate enough and come at the right place at the right time and volunteer for the right grad students or post-docs, you can get to be one of the authors on their paper in 3 months if they are publishing soon -- but for majority of people it takes longer than that -- usually, if you enter into some summer program on campus, 3 months culminate in a poster session or presentation, not a publication -- but then that also looks very well on your application to grad or professional school</p>
<p>I agree with kihyle.
The goal of working in a lab should be to get published, not just to have something to put on your resume when you apply to med school. In many cases, you will learn little if you're only available intermittently or just during the summer, and may end up doing little more than cleaning glassware or a basic assay or two. Just putting down that you worked in a lab(s) isn't enough for med schools anymore, as it's becoming expected that most applicants will have done so at some point. Putting the time in, getting your own results or assisting enough to get published on someone else's, and being able to get legitimate letters of recommendation from your PI are how you can make yourself a more attractive applicant.</p>
<p>so what happens if one doesn't get the chance to "move up" from clearning glasswear? How do you approach a professor about this?</p>
<p>in my experience labs are pretty meritocratic; if you demonstrate that you are competent at the basic things then you get to move up to more important work. I've never had any issues talking to one of the staff scientists or the PI about what I wanted to be doing, and if they feel you're ready, most are willing to accomodate you.</p>
<p>so if there is no chance that one can get a paper published, is it better not to do research at all? Also, do you advise research in freshman year?</p>
<p>Definitely do research no matter what, and definitely do it as much/early as possible.</p>
<p>But kihyle is right, a publication is a big, big deal.</p>
<p>Well, you have no way of knowing if you can get a paper published until you actually get in a lab, so avoiding research is bascially giving up before you get started. Secondly, just because you're in a lab doesn't mean you're doing research, cleaning glassware and racking pippette tips doesn't count. Though getting practical experience in benchwork, regardless of the type, and not getting a paper published is still worlds better than doing no research at all. At top med schools, the majority of incoming students have research experience anymore, so it's starting to become an expected thing.</p>
<p>Regarding doing it your freshman year, while I cannot overemphasize the importance getting your foot in the door as quickly as possible, as oftentimes students find themselves scrambling for a spot to work even at large research universities (UPenn is the example I'm citing, since that's where I go); I was lucky enough to both live in the same city as the school I attend and to have had gotten lab experience through an internship while still in high school, so I felt like professors were more willing to take a chance in taking me on as an assistant because i had some experience, and I even went back to the lab in which I originally interned after some time in a different one. The same scenario can be applied to people who start working freshman year as opposed to later on; they get more experience earlier, and so can get better positions in more desireable labs. However, and this is a big however, the time committment necessary to be productive in a lab may be too great to take on right away in your first semester of college as you adjust to the new workload. Personally, I would recommend not trying to get a job right away, but maybe in the Spring of freshman year, and then try to stay for the summer if at all possible; that way you can get some of the basic things down while working part time during the semester, and then get more in depth as you're there more full time in the summer.</p>
<p>And by "majority", PhillySASer means 85%+, so he means a HUGE majority.</p>
<p><so if="" there="" is="" no="" chance="" that="" one="" can="" get="" a="" paper="" published,="" it="" better="" not="" to="" do="" research="" at="" all?=""></so></p>
<p>No, it is not better. Here, Ive complied 11 good reasons for it:</p>
<p>1) Good and detailed letter of rec. Mention of such things as "incentive" and "maturity of thought" and "dedication" usually does not occur when you simply go to office hours.</p>
<p>2) You demonstrate that you can commit to something long-term. All professional schools like that. Losing students who are not dedicated enough is costly for them. </p>
<p>3) It also serves as proof that you like science and you're not applying to professional or grad school just because your parents or advisor told you to.</p>
<p>4) Youll learn some practical skills that you may need in the future, especially if you ever plan to work in a research lab for industry or in academia. </p>
<p>5) Youll also get to observe the life of grad students and post-docs, the work of professors, what all these people do outside of lecturing or TAing students. Might even learn some insider information, things like who teaches such and such class best, where and how to obtain research scholarships, something about politics within the department, etc.</p>
<p>6) Practical applications also reinforce theoretical knowledge you have learned from the textbooks. For example, if you ever do aldol condensation in lab, there is a big chance youll remember it when doing MCAT or chemistry GRE.</p>
<p>7) You will also learn how to think independently. So you read all these textbooks, but what use are they if you dont know how to apply what you know to solve real life problems? Its a chance to take a stab at this.</p>
<p>8) Youll also get more experience with searching current literature and finding information you need efficiently.</p>
<p>9) In some labs, undergraduates get to do presentations for the group meetings. Presentations can be about literature or research. Grad students and post-docs will mainly present research and occasionally literature. Undergrads who are just starting out can be called upon to do literature talks. This is a great way to do some extra reading and to learn how to present. Youd be amazed how many people have problems with their presentations. They either make font size like <12 and you cant make anything out, or their background is too dark, or their slides are overloaded with information, or they get too nervous and make 20 minute presentation into a 5 minute one. I mean this is good chance to practice.</p>
<p>10) If you get any good results, even if it might not be enough for a publication it increases your self-confidence. There is this very pleasant feeling of reward.</p>
<p>11) Suppose you don't get into grad school or professional school -- then what? You'll have to find a job. If your major is science related, you need skills for employers to want to employ you. Otherwise you'll have trouble finding a job. By doing independent research you gain technical skills and once again a recommendation from someone with some weight to make the back-up plan work in case you don't get into any school.</p>
<p><so what="" happens="" if="" one="" doesn't="" get="" the="" chance="" to="" "move="" up"="" from="" clearning="" glasswear?="" how="" do="" you="" approach="" a="" professor="" about="" this=""></so></p>
<p>You will wash glassware only if you get hired as student assistant or lab helper i.e. for a wage. If youre volunteering, you will not be forced to just wash glassware. Perhaps on a few occasions youll do it -- to help out the grad student youre working with or wash glassware for your own use. If they are not paying you money for this, you dont do this kind of manual work for them. If youre paying you money, it is totally up to them to say what work you will do. They might teach you something extra, or they might promise and then forget about it. In which case you can do the following:</p>
<p>1) Say, I want to learn something new. Does anyone need any help with their project? Ill come extra hours to learn and help this person out. This implies that they will not pay you for hours youll spend learning. Because it is not in their interest, only in yours. Some labs have no trouble with you doing something extra during your work hours and others will be very stingy with your time, requiring you do only work during you work hours. This way you reassure them that you be only volunteering to learn something new (so they are not paying you for hours that are mainly to your benefit, not theirs).</p>
<p>2) If there is no hope, change labs you dont want to just clean glassware for longer than, say, 3 months time. Unless you need the money, you'll just be wasting time.</p>
<p>4) Volunteer instead of working. Volunteer for a younger professor. Volunteer for anyone you can find in any department that is somewhat related to professional school youll apply for (for pre-meds this would be biology, biochemistry, chemistry, bioengineering departments, or a lab at local medical or pharm school or may be government facility). Younger professors have a lot of things to do around lab and trouble attracting graduate students because they havent proven themselves at anything yet more chances a younger prof will have an independent project for you to explore. Younger professors are a bit risky, however, in that they themselves can be a bit clueless when it comes to research. They are inexperienced. Letters of rec from them do not weigh as much as say a letter from someone who has already spent 20+ years working in the field and is well-known already. However, younger profs usually do have more space in their lab if you have trouble finding a spot. They will also be in lab more frequently to supervise you more. Older profs are usually absent much more frequently.</p>
<p>Kihyle,</p>
<p>I will also mention that for medical school LORs, the most important thing is to have somebody who knows you well. Getting a "well-known" prof is an extremely secondary bonus.</p>
<p>how many professors should we get to know well for LORs?</p>
<p>Varies considerably depending on the number of medical schools you are going to apply to and/or what kind of undergrad school you went to.</p>
<p>If I recall/guess correctly, you're an in-state resident at UCB, right? One of my friends in your position needed 9 recommendations, all told.</p>
<p>this question has probably been asked before, but it's pretty relevant to the topic.....if you are a freshman, how is it possible that you would have enough skills/knowledge to assist in a lab? also, professors will always like it better if you have already had experience in a lab, so it seems unlikely to get a lab position at such an early time if you have hardly any lab experience.....is it ok just to ask profs if you could help in their lab as a freshman w/ limited experience or will they think you're crazy?<br>
ok that was more than one question but if anyone can please enlighten me thank you!</p>
<p>You'll just be a drone. You may not have any knowledge but you can follow directions.</p>
<p>"Pipet 5 uL of X into test tube #32"</p>
<p>i need 9 letters of recommendations? Would med schools even bother to read all nine?</p>