LAC for jazz musician/maybe not music major

<p>^ See warning in post #13 about lessons with Eastman grad students, LOL. I will say that Eastman's presence in Rochester does make this a very musical city - including U of R. I suspect that there are good ensembles at U of R because there are generally some very talented musicians in this city available to lead them.</p>

<p>Whoa, not so fast to dismiss Oberlin for this jazz-strong college student looking for a fine LAC! Especially when they're about to launch the first Conservatory Jazz Studies program in the country (check it out....) right on a college campus. Oberlin College is chock full of music lovers who find a way to continue despite the awesome surroundings. The best idea cited was to check out each school carefully, so don't run away now.</p>

<p>The above poster was correct that the Oberlin college/con line is "permeable" for musicians from College or Con. For a classical violinist moving up from the high school
orchestras, who loves music but not audition-approved for the Conservatory, it might be better to go where s/he can get into the college orchestra, most definitely. But there are so many different goals. I'm aware of that because my S double-majored in music at Amherst College because all he ever wanted was exposure and choir opportunities within a LAC education, not to become a professional musician. It's a sensitive issue to explore individually, as you are doing. </p>

<p>I'm sorry to hear that some Eastman Conservatory students are not always good teachers for high school students around Rochester. ONe college student to another at Oberlin, on the same campus (a "Connie" teaching a college student) means the comraderie is different and better. Still, it will depend on the individual Con student-teacher, as with any teacher. I think the Con lists their teachers and you take from their list...I don't know the inner workings.</p>

<p>I'd ask specifically about the jazz studies program there. They are moving in venerated jazz musicians, perhaps a half dozen, from around the country as resident faculty of the Conservatory. The question is: will those teachers (like Oberlin's classical violin teachers, for example) be restricted to teaching the Conservatory students, or will they be giving lessons also to interested college students? Also: I assume the classes these gentlemen will hold will be for all students, Con and College, which is the situation in most conservatory CLASSES, I do believe. </p>

<p>If one studies (for lessons) with a Con student, it's a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to get lessons at a low cost from someone of high caliber. If one's goal is just to brush it up to a higher level on an instrument, rather than become concert quality, two college-age students (the Conservatory teaching the college), working in a practice room, can be just the right blend. </p>

<p>Performing ensembles is a different matter. Then it would be worth knowing if there are official ensembles and unofficial ones, how many unofficial ones there are. Could be there are MORE informal opportunities at a music-saturated place like Oberlin as long as one doesn't have to be in the official Conservatory brand-name ensemble. </p>

<p>Then there's the opportunity to hear music of interest to this student, and for free, constantly. </p>

<p>For other readers, I'm just mentioning that each instrument is a different story. Even the Baroque ensemble story above needs to be reworked in terms of jazz ensembles, but I'm glad to hear about that one also. If all you like to do is sing, for example, and you're good at it, you can be mighty happy at Oberlin in the Oberlin College Choir, which tours and so on, It's by audition but limited (!) to college students exactly because of what others point out, that going to college where there's also a Con means the students don't get as many performing opportunities. So this kind of protects the college students opportunity to continue singing in a school choir. You just have to do tons of research, and I put that up as an example. WIth a new jazz studies program, similar tons of research need be done rather than take the conclusions of the classical performers.</p>

<p>I'd be asking 3 kinds of questions everywhere., at all the fine schools mentioned above:
1. What are my college-sanctioned jazz ensemble opportunities?
2. What are my informal ensemble opportunities and how frequent/good are they?
3. If I want lessons, how can I get them? From a teacher or fellow student?
May I audition for lessons with a music teacher if I'm not a major? etc
Re "private lessons" -- what do they cost? (for example, Oberlin's
private voice lessons, taught Con student to college student, were
for academic credit)
4. Review the college's concert schedules for the previous year and see how many were jazz concerts. Get a sense of what priority/respect the college places on jazz, in particular. </p>

<p>What can I say, I'm the proudest possible Oberlin College alum, married an Oberlin College music major, sent my D off to Oberlin College (where she majored in Religion -- ah well, one went bad). So I'm totally blind to its flaws. Everyone loves their own college. Yet, it's music, so it's really heartening to know of musical offerings in so many places.</p>

<p>Good luck on a worthy search for this young person! It's great to see us all leap to attract a good musician. Why, you'd think he was an athlete or something, with all our excitement over this inquiry ;)</p>

<p>I'm overwhelmed by all this info in 12 hours. You CCers really are fabulous! More info: we're talking about a drummer here which, unfortunately, is usually a small section in a band/orchestra... Also very well-rounded, passionate about jazz, but also plays soccer and participates in mock trial, community service. Thanks again for the advice...and keep it coming if you have more!</p>

<p>Just wanted to add my thanks as well. For S1, I didn't discover CC until all the apps were in. So for S2, a soph, I'm trying to be better prepared. </p>

<p>P3T: Great list of questions to frame the college search. I don't know about the OP, but I needed that! Altmom: Tulane will be considered. The only drawback, other than the distance, for my S is that he loves snow so I was first looking at colleges that get a winter to give him that change of scenery from CA. </p>

<p>SJTH: I'm thinking that UCLA also has a jazz studies program, and there are clubs and performance venues galore in the greater L.A. area. Good luck with your search.</p>

<p>More feedback on Oberlin. DS visited last week, as he has been accepted there in the Arts & Sciences college. He plays jazz/blues piano and met with a music prof at the con who specializes in jazz piano and keyboard. This prof said that it is VERY hard/unusual for students in the Arts & Sciences to take most music courses: in his jazz course there are NO students who are not Conservatory students. Yes, you can take music lessons, but as a student at the Arts & Sciences college you will probably get lessons from a senior Con student rather than from a Music prof.</p>

<p>Also from reading the Oberlin catalog it appears that there is no Music minor offered for students in the Arts & Sciences college. You can major in Music (or double major), but not minor.</p>

<p>Oberlin is a great school and there is a deep and broad music scene on campus, but DS has chosen to go elsewhere. He did say, though, that if he had not gotten in to his first choice school he would have chosen to go to Oberlin.</p>

<p>D was a non-music major at Wesleyan. In HS, she was mainly a trumpeter, but she taught herself drums on the side. At Wesleyan, she took several great drum/percussion classes (jazz, African, gamelan) and had opporunities to participate in ensembles outside of class. It seems there was no limit to what a non-music major could go with their music there.</p>

<p>"Ironically, the one exception to the general rule might be a very music-oriented school like Oberlin."</p>

<p>Possibly. But Oberlin itself, quite possibly not. Probably depends on exactly what level of involvement is desired. OP needs to explore this specifically.</p>

<p>" You would have to do some research," yes</p>

<p>"..but with all conservatory students, the last thing Oberlin needs is more musicians. "</p>

<p>If that's the case, then how come so many musicians who are not in the con are crawling all over their campus?? Music appreciation and affiliation is quite ubiquitously evident at Oberlin, outside of the con as well as inside of it.</p>

<p>I and others have made this same observation before, in response to the very same assertion from someone who has never set foot there.</p>

<p>FWIW, my daughter, a really good but not con-level musician, has taken lessons there, from a con student who she says was the best teacher she ever had. I think she got two credits for some of that; not sure. The rest was dirt cheap, and well worth it.</p>

<p>When I was up there I heard about some band of Oberlin students that has been serving as the warm-up act for major bands touring in Cleveland; it is made up of some Con students and some students from the College.</p>

<p>I think Liz Phair was a major at the College, not the Con.</p>

<p>Whenever I've gone up there I've heard people out on the quad, playing string band music, or whatever. Music permeates the campus. It is not just from the Con, though the Con is possibly a catalyst and a major asset to it.</p>

<p>"There's an famous College Confidential story of a Interlochen camp level classical pianist with very high academic stats who applied to Oberlin as a non conservatory student and got rejected."</p>

<p>Yeah, and you left out the reason the story is infamous is that he was rejected at every school he applied to, only one of which was Oberlin. His mom admitted his application may have indicated no real passion or interest in Oberlin; he never visited, etc. None of us read his application. This means absolutely nothing of any relevance whatsoever.</p>

<p>I second Tufts as a great choice.</p>

<p>Jazzymom--thanks for your advice--good luck to you too.</p>

<p>monydad: You can bet Liz Phair was not a con student. Have you heard her play/sing? (I love Exile, but musical technique is not its draw.) Ditto Karen O. (not sure about Brian Chase) and Josh Ritter. (I'm not sure about the guy from Deerhoof, either.) Oberlin College has a lot of indie-rock pedigree.</p>

<p>This thread contains more information regarding the music major at Oberlin College (as opposed to Oberlin Conservatory). Evidently there were some questions left unanswered; suggest someone who learns the rest should post:</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=255941%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=255941&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>
[quote]
Whoa, not so fast to dismiss Oberlin for this jazz-strong college student looking for a fine LAC!

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I wasn't dismissing it. Just suggesting that a student needs to figure out where they stand. If, for example, music is their primary EC, then they need to figure out how desireable their level of interest will be to a school that atttracts a disproportionate share of top musicians. It's also worth checking out the options for a "walk-on" musician.</p>

<p>A similar situation exists for potential varsity athletes at Williams. Because their athletics are so strong and they enroll so many recruited athletes, it can actually be a bad admissions bet for a student whose main EC is sports, but who is not talented or committed enough to be a four-year varsity player on Williams' teams. The same level of talent/interest may be much more attractive to another school. </p>

<p>I have no idea what the student would find at Oberlin. But, those are the things I would explore when I started communicating with the music department professors...there and at every other college.</p>

<p>That was my concern as well, ID. Kind of a Catch 22, since you look for artsy/music friendly colleges, but the ones that have renowned music programs probably fill their music-EC quota with their music majors. I guess it's a question that needs to be asked at each college. </p>

<p>OP: You can look at a guide book called "Schools that Rock" as a starting point.</p>

<p>"I wasn't dismissing it. "</p>

<p>I guess where she, and I, got confused is we, evidently, thought you posted</p>

<p>"...the last thing Oberlin needs is more musicians."</p>

<p>That to me is a rather affirmative statement, which sounds pretty tantamount to dismissing it. Though you qualify it, the overall tone is rather dismissive, not just raising a hypothetical question about conservatories generally.</p>

<p>And your two sentences immediately preceding and following that one also mention Oberlin specifically. </p>

<p>One might infer from that you had some specific insight about Oberlin, since you mentioned it three times by name.</p>

<p>When in fact, actually it now appears that your specific insight is regarding Williams' football team or something.</p>

<p>Lots of acculumated experience on here.</p>

<p>Some other suggestions:
1. On any campus visit, try to sit in on an ensemble, or in some way guage the general level of playing. Our S listened to some recorded tracks of LAC jazz bands and found their level of playing lower than the excellent musicians he played with in h igh school. At some universities, however, he was blown away by the level of musicianship.
2. Try to get the real story on opportunities for non-music majors wherever you go. For example, Northwestern has excellent music, but we were told candidly by a prof that their main jazz instructor at the time was so popular that no one who was not a major made it into his class. UCLA does, in fact, have a wonderful jazz program. They will take some other students into the ensembles, but the reality is that the talent level is so high that you have to be exceptional to get those opportunities if you are not part of the program.
3. Some colleges will offer a great jazz band, open by audition. The question then is what happens to those who don't make it. Is it enough to find fellow students to form bands? Or would your son want more instruction? This, finally, is what tipped the balance for Columbia for my son. There is a semi-professional level jazz ensemble there, which includes graduate students, and which my son will probably never have the chops for. On the other hand, every student who is at least an intermediate player and wants to be in an ensemble is assigned to one. He has played in an ensemble every semester, led by an up and coming jazz pianist, and also takes individual lessons on his instrument (tenor sax) with a professional saxophonist who is hired by Columbia for that purpose. He finds "incredible talent" among his fellow students (he claims all the players in his ensemble this year are "way better" than he is), yet few of them are music majors. That was exactly the low-key but steady growth experience he chose over the possibility of going somewhere with a single jazz band that performs and travels, but which he might not get into. He also wanted to be somewhere he could hear a lot of jazz, and you can't beat NYC for that.</p>

<p>Again, Wesleyan is the LAC that I associate with jazz and world music.</p>

<p>
[quote]
And your two sentences immediately preceding and following that one also mention Oberlin specifically.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I mentioned Oberlin, because I was responding to the prior posts in the thread. Oberlin, for good reason, was being suggested as a great choice for an LAC with a heavy emphasis on music. I was simply trying to point out that Oberlin's music emphasis may be counterproductive for an applicant trying to sell a music EC but who may not want to be a music major and who may want to be involved in music ECs as a "walk on". I pointed out the Interlochen pianist in a similar circumstance who (shockingly, IMO) did not get accepted to Oberlin. I can only surmise that Oberlin gets a lot of applications from Interlochen pianists. There are many LACs that would kill for an Interlochen pianist.</p>

<p>If you read my overall advice, it was to begin a dialog with the music department at each school as early as this summer, because that would be the best way to evaluate the lay of the land for a student in that particular situation. It is possible that a music chair would say, "I'm going to be honest....our jazz ensembles are extremely competitive and it's unlikely that you could participate without being a music major...". </p>

<p>I don't think my advice to contact the music departments was misguided.</p>

<p>As far as "the last thing Oberlin needs...", I would be shocked if Oberlin doesn't have music EC applications piled to the ceiling. From an admissions standpoint, it's beneficial to sell something the particular college doesn't get as much of. I didn't see enough info in the initial post to determine whether or not Oberlin would be a reach.</p>

<p>SJTH, I think you’ve had some good suggestions. I agree with what I-Dad said that MANY LACs are looking for students who will support the campus community’s music groups – even if s/he’s not planning to major in music. Obviously in addition to thinking about which colleges would be interested IN him, he’ll need to focus on which would be of interest TO him. Hopefully there will be a few overlaps on the list. </p>

<p>With your son’s academic profile I’d suggest that he take a look at Williams. Several of my son’s friends are accomplished musicians – both jazz and classical – and though none is actually a music major, they all draw on the excellent music department and perform frequently on campus. I understand that jazz is especially well supported and that there are many formal and informal performance opportunities. If you peruse the music department’s website you’ll get an idea of what’s available.
<a href="http://www.williams.edu/Music/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.williams.edu/Music/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>This letter from the chair really sums it up: <a href="http://www.williams.edu/Music/admission_info/index.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.williams.edu/Music/admission_info/index.html&lt;/a>
I do think your son will find this kind of open-armed welcome at many LACs, so the question is what’s HE looking for – other than in environment and ambience?</p>

<p>I would definitely agree that setting up a meeting with the music department is a good idea as is putting together a music package that would include a performance tape, a resume of classes and performances, a list of accomplishments/awards, a recommendation from a music instructor or mentor, a personal statement and a limited (very limited :)) selection of newspaper or magazine articles about his performances.</p>

<p>SJTH: I also second what jjsmom says about TUFTS. D is a freshman there, with a probable International Relations major. But she loves music (sings and plays piano). Since she has been there, she is in an a capella group, sings with the Chamber group and just had a lead role in the musical. The new building is spectacular and Tufts has invested a huge amount in their music program and provide lots of opportunities for non majors. My D tells us that double majors are now the norm there..........so maybe your S will consider a double major.</p>

<p>Okay. Princeton, Williams, Wesleyan, Tufts, Oberlin. Great suggestions for the "reach" category. Anyone familiar with slightly less selective options that would have jazz band opportunities for nonmusic majors (in addition to Lawrence). And CA parents, what about the UCs other than UCLA?</p>

<p>"Anyone familiar with slightly less selective options that would have jazz band
opportunities for nonmusic majors (in addition to Lawrence)."</p>

<p>Look at Gettysburg. (see I can say something besides "Oberlin" :)</p>