Hi All. I’ve posted a bit over time in other forums. My D is a high stat student, very good capable cellist. Not interested in a conservatory but will double major in music. She won’t compromise on either…meaning wants top notch academics as well as a strong music program. She is interested in smaller LACs (leaning towards math or science). She has Lawrence and St Olaf as safeties. We are full pay so merit would be great. Looking for any recommendations on strong music in top LACs. On her list so far are Macalester, Grinnell, Davidson, Scripps, Harvey Mudd, Smith, Mt Holyoke and a few others. She is throwing in an Ivy or two possibly. Someone suggested Tulane and Emory as a smaller Universities. Unsure of classical music at Tulane. Anything we missed? Any info on any of those schools music programs? Thank you!
She should look at Oberlin and Denison to see if what they offer interests her. Both give merit.
Tufts is stingy but has a very interesting program wit the New England Conservatory if that’s a path that ppeals to her.
You might want to read the Double Degree Dilemma essay posted closer to the top of this forum. It uses hypothetical students to illustrate the various options for studying music and is not just about double degrees. Some of us found it very useful.
Does she want a double degree or a double major? A double degree is generally 5 years and can be a BA/BM (like Tufts, Oberlin, Lawrence etc.) or a BA/MM (like Harvard).
If she does not want to do a BM, but wants a double major with a music major and something else as a second major (or major/minor) then she might want to think about applying to schools that do NOT have a conservatory or school of music on campus. Oberlin and Lawrence do have conservatories. Or talk with the schools to see if the best teachers and performance opportunities go to the BM students rather than the BA students.
Yale has a School of Music but may or may not be the best Ivy to consider. Princeton has a performance certificate and a program with the Royal Academy in London (as I remember) but Harvard has similar offerings. So read the fine print. Harvard has made some very recent changes to the music curriculum there in order to be more inclusive of differing backgrounds and interests.
Tufts (with NEC), Oberlin, Lawrence, Ithaca, Bard, St. Olaf’s and several other colleges and universities offer double degrees. They also offer a BA in music (1/4-1/3 classes in music), as well as a BM in music (2/3- 3/4 classes in music).
Just wanted to clarify some of the apples and oranges in the list 
Many of the schools you listed don’t offer BM degrees but some of them do.
I had wonder about the double major comment as well…as I know at Lawrence it would be a double degree.
One other note is that Lawrence may be an academic safety for a BA or BS … but any BM program may be hard to consider a safety…in particular Lawrence. St. Olaf may be a tad easier but I have known some decent musicians that were not accepted into their BM. In the case of Lawrence, one of my D’s friends passed pre-screening but did not get an offer after her audition. She was a fine musician but just not quite there. She did end up a Macalester and was quite happy. She was an outstanding academic kid and did music on the side at Macalester. I believe Macalester has a BA…but I’m not 100% sure. I think the girl now works for Amazon…so the rejection from Lawrence didn’t clip her wings too much.
I may stand corrected if Lawrence has a BA in music not requiring an audition where a double major could be done. And for what it is worth, another musical friend got a BA at Lawrence (can’t remember in what but it wasn’t music) but she did music on the side with no audition for admittance to Lawrence. She sang in some choirs and had teacher and was very happy with her musical experience there.
So in response to reading the article, she has read it and still is unsure. So at the moment most options are on the table but as parents we think she will end up as a double major and not do a dual degree with a BM. But she isn’t quite there yet and it could go either way. In consultations it has been suggested getting into Lawrence Conservatory (dual degree program) or St Olaf either BM or BA would not be a problem with D’s level of talent. But you never know. Oberlin might be a bit more of a stretch at the moment. But on the academic side she has the stats for an Ivy or equivalent. What would be the best choice (I think) is finding a top small LAC with a really strong program (and hopefully merit aid). Or even a school with an amazing cello professor. Many schools were rejected from list after watching you tube clips of orchestra. Her HS orchestra is significantly better than most colleges. She wants an orchestra/program where she will be challenged. It seems hard to get any information.
I find it’s easier to use google to search the Music Major forum - than using CC’s only search function. Just use the words “Music Major” and talk.collegeconfidential plus any keywords of interest. Your daughter’s dilemma comes up every year, and every year there’s a thread about it. Great music programs where the student needn’t get a music degree, and orchestras as good as the current youth orchestra… Check out this list of results on a quick search I did: https://www.google.com/search?q=talk.collegeconfidential+music+major+strong+orchestras+site:talk.collegeconfidential.com&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiLu_X8pMjVAhVFllQKHSrwAhEQrQIINCgEMAA&biw=2144&bih=1030
Thank you!! helpful.
Sometimes schools have somewhat hidden programs. Many of the LACs are actually fairly weak in orchestra or chamber music, even if you find a good cello teacher, just because they are so small (this does NOT include Oberlin, St. Olaf 's, Bard, or Lawrence, which all have enough musicians to create strong programs). But look carefully. Smith and Mt. Holyoke, for example, have quite small programs and don’t necessarily attract a large number of musicians. Williams College on the other hand, has both a strong cello teacher and an interesting orchestra: Williams students play in The Berkshire Symphony, which is made up of half Williams students and half local professional musicians, so the quality and repertoire are higher than at many other small (non-conservatory) schools. Just check out the music programs carefully-- I’m sure there are others like Williams. My son is also a cellist but decided, on the end, he wanted a bigger program. If she starts looking at larger schools, there’s a much bigger list, but there ARE some small schools with good music.Good luck!
@Daykidmom I tried to pm you about colleges with good cello teachers in NJ, PA and OH, but it didn’t work. Could you pm me?
Will do thanks!
@Veryapparent I sent you a PM
Another option that some have alluded to, is to major in something else and do music “on the side.” Some very talented and committed students do this ( I know a few at Ivies).
It is quite reasonable to apply to schools that represent a number of options, and decide in April of senior year
I have a very similar son. Strong academics and strong musician. In his case, he is a maybe on a double degree and for sure wants to music. Preferably a BM to a BA… Fit is hard for him because he sings and takes lessons on 2 instruments and is maybe more interested in a general music (possibly composition) instead of a very specialized performance BM. I need to have him read the dual degree article. So many schools want a kid to highly specialize. Lawrence seems a bit more student oriented and flexible than most.
We are local to Macalaster and St. Olaf and know people admitted to Lawrence Con (also popular for locals). When it comes to auditions and strong music programs and BM programs, I’m getting the feeling there isn’t much safety. Sometimes it just comes down to a numbers game. However, I have heard of some who’ve enrolled academically to Olaf/Lawrence and got in to the BM/Con program re-auditioning after the fact. Anyway - I want to follow this thread in case people start posting safeties to do a BM oriented in piano or voice (bari). 
I much prefer a University or LAC program to strictly a conservatory.
Anyway, we’ve toured and talked and St. Olaf and Lawrence are much stronger for music than Macalester. You can only do a BA in music at Mac not a BM. We just toured Mac and it’s a great school, but my kid didn’t think it would be a fit for him. However, if your student were more excited about their other degree than music, I’d take a look.
Anyway - I may have to start a thread for him one of these days. I LOVE the look of Lawrence U for him. He is pretty out of the box in his music interests. He’s a rising junior so we’re just getting started this summer. I like the look of Oberlin but I suspect he wouldn’t like it. He is very interested in Berklee, but I’m not sure he would actually like that long term either.
I do like the look of Yale’s BA/MM program quite a bit! The kid here may just throw himself into the ring on that with no expectations.
http://yalemusic.yale.edu/undergraduate/bamm-program
Totally agree with the above. I’m local too…and Macalester is not considered a strong music school here. That doesn’t mean you can’t do music there. But Lawrence and St. Olaf are considered the strong music schools in this area. And I agree that acceptances could depend on the year as they are both competitive. All 3 are good schools … but have their differences. Macalester if you want to lead with academics and music on the side. St. Olaf if you want to lead with music (and have a program that allows a lot of flexibility and exploration) with strong academics. Lawrence if you want top academics and top music (more of a conservatory environment) - the double degree program. That’s opinion…but hopefully helpful.
I wanted to reinforce the idea that she doesn’t have to do a dual agree to do high level music, the fact that a school doesn’t have a BM or a BA in performance doesn’t necessarily matter. The Ivy league schools, for example, keep their eyes out for talented musicians in admissions, and though they don’t offer performance degrees, they have high level orchestra and chamber, and will often pay for private lessons (I know Princeton does this, I believe Columbia does, Pretty sure Harvard and Yale do as well), so she could major in something and do music at a high level, more than a few kids go to the ivies to get the degree to please the parents, then get an MM degree and become musicians.
I can’t talk about programs with a BA in music performance, but I would be careful about that, you might find the BA program doesn’t give that much challenge, it all depends on the school, they may not have a good cello teacher/faculty, or the overall level may be low, you might find a better experience at an LAC or let’s say an Ivy that have strong music programs. On instrumental music, without naming names, some of the schools mentioned are not that great in Instrumental music, you might do better with an LAC or an ivy and doing music “on the side”, in terms of level (put it this way, a lot of the kids who go through programs like Juilliard’s pre college program end up at LACs and Ivies and the like and continue to play music).
I don’t know what the OP’s D ends up wanting to do, if she wants to perhaps be a musician, but there are many paths. If she thinks she may down the road try doing music professionally, she likely would have to do an MM program, seems to be de rigeur these days, and you can do that coming out of a variety of backgrounds. The key, both for the challenge and for the future if she wants to try the MM route, is to have a great teacher, work their tail off with practicing, and find challenging music to do:)
I know musicians who went to Harvard and they did not go to please their parents They went for a breadth of education at the undergrad level that they think will enhance their music and lives. There are also conservatory students who do grad work there, whether in music or something else. Things can be done in different sequences.
Double major at Mudd with one a music major would be very difficult. Merit is also fairly hard to get there – I’d say don’t let her apply if you aren’t prepared to pay full price (over $70K a year now, just made May last payment a few months ago!).
IIRC, College of Wooster and Dickinson had reasonable music programs, although not at the level of Lawrence and St. Olaf. They both offer merit and Wooster (and St. Olaf) offer music merit scholarships as well as academic merit scholarships. You can stack academic and music merit up to 50% of COA at St O and Wooster.
My D is a good but not professional level musician. She applied to Wooster, Dickinson, and St. Olaf. Of those St. Olaf was the most appealing to her for both academics and performing arts. Ended up at Oberlin, where you can’t really study music academically unless you’re in the Con. But opportunities for musical performance and collaboration abound in extracurricular venues.
Thanks! Actually D is going to try for dual degree at Oberlin and is also applying to St Olaf which I think might be the best fit. We looked at Wooster and she was lukewarm on it. I think Oberlin is really iffy for conservatory but she’d consider going there just for college of arts and sciences and participate in non con music opportunities. Any feedback on musical opportunities at Oberlin in that scenario? She is a total music snob so needs high level orchestra.
@Veryapparent There is an A&S orchestra for non-con faculty and students and they play at a very high level. There are some videos on youtube if you want to check it out.
So far, D has been listening to music more than producing it. She’s focusing on her studies first and as she gets a better sense of how much time she has for other things, she will pick up extracurricular activities. She does report that the concerts she has been attending are superb. The musical performances at orientation were phenomenally good.
My D also preferred St Olaf over Wooster. St Olaf was one of my favorite campus visits. The personalized and kind attention from the office of admissions and their student employees was exceptional.
However, my D had her heart set on Oberlin. Academically, she has found it very challenging so far and I believe that she has chosen well.