<p>TheDad, I'm glad your daughter is happy where she is at. That is probably the most important thing about choosing the right college. I hope you werent referring to me in your last paragraph. I did not intend to be condescending to LAC's. I personally cannot understand how anyone would choose one over an equally prestigious research university but that is only my opinion. I do know that people look for different things in college and LAC's are good for people who like that sort of thing. The list I made was only a generalization; in general those things I mentioned are pluses for larger schools but they still do not carry the implications that one cannot be happy at an LAC. Apparently many people are in fact happy at little schools.</p>
<p>in fact not only are many people very satisfied with their education at a LAC, but going by the percentage of students who graduate from LACS and attain a Ph.d compared to the percentage of students who graduate from Universities and complete a Ph.d ( including Ivies), liberal arts colleges come out well ahead in all major areas.;)
<a href="http://web.reed.edu/ir/phd.html%5B/url%5D">http://web.reed.edu/ir/phd.html</a>
But those LACS don't even have football teams! :eek:</p>
<p>Correction: Not that it matter to anyone but I am a freak for accuracy in reporting. Going back to my post from 2 days back, SNA is not an operating system, it is a proprietary layered protocol invented at IBM in the late 70s and evolved till the late 80s and I worked on implementing various layers of it. It allowed mainframes and other IBM computers to talk to each other error free.....</p>
<p>Shyboy: "can not understand how anyone would choose one [LAC] over an equally prestigious research university" and "...LAC's are good for people who like that sort of thing."</p>
<p>Now read the definition of "condescending."</p>
<p>TheDad, I think you are the one being condescending. Do you really think your opinion is the only one that counts on this board? Why did you specifically leave out portions of my sentences so as to make it seem like I was being condescending? Here is what I said:</p>
<p>I personally cannot understand how anyone would choose one over an equally prestigious research university but that is only my opinion.</p>
<p>Now, for some reason you felt it was necessary to leave off the part that said it was only my opinion. Am I not allowed to have an opinion of my own? Everyone else here has an opinion but because I dont personally like LACs then I am insulting people? Many people, such as your daughter, like LACs but that doesnt insult me one bit. </p>
<p>I do know that people look for different things in college and LAC's are good for people who like that sort of thing.</p>
<p>On this one you left off the part where I said that people look for different things in colleges. What is wrong with that sentence if you leave it alone and dont pick the parts of it off that you desire? LACs are for people who like them! What is wrong with saying that? I always say that people should go where there is a good fit. If you like LACss then go to an LAC. If you like Universities then go to a University. </p>
<p>I would expect this sort of thing on the rest of the boards but I thought the parents forum was supposed to be for mature people to discuss college issues without fear of being personally attacked. Dang, the whole point of my post was to say I hope you didnt think I was being condescending in the first place! What is this world coming to? :)</p>
<p>I think describing anything and then adding "but that is ok for people who like that sort of thing" will be taken as condescending, because the implication is there that the speaker does not care for that sort of thing and what's more is "above" that sort of thing.
I mean, "that sort of thing" could be applied to anything, country music, dressing up like a furry animal, even voting libertarian, but the phrase is generally derogatory.
I do appreciate student viewpoints and I agree that generally you will recieve more thoughtful replies than in say the "cafe", but when you paint with a broadbrush schools that obviously you know little about, you can expect to get called on it.</p>
<p>emeraldkity4, that sort of thing cannot be applied to anything when used in the context as I used it. It was very explicit that I was talking about LACs. Colleges are things. That sort of is referring to a specific type of thing, i.e. an LAC. So that sort of thing was referring to a specific type of college. How is that hard to understand? And why do you say I obviously know so little about LACs? Is that not being condescending? You dont know anything about what I know just like I dont know anything about what you know. You stated as a fact that I know so little about LACs. Now, I understand that so little is not factual but instead subject to opinion but it implies that it is a fact (based on your opinion) that I dont know very much about the subjects I was talking about, i.e. LACs. </p>
<p>Look, I am not going to argue about silly things. I did not intend to be rude, condescending, or derogatory to Liberal Arts Colleges or anyone who believes so strongly in their importance. It seems as though no one reads what I say anyway and accuses me of doing the things they themselves are doing. It is my OPINION that the reason you guys attack me is because I dont particularly care for what LAC's have to offer. For those of you who pay attention and can analyze what I say I will leave you with a summary of my feelings.</p>
<p>Every person should choose a college based on fit. If you have a choice between two or more schools you should attend the one that you like the best.</p>
<p>shyboy
just admitting that you don't know why any one would choose an LAC over a university even allowing that some people may feel it is a better "fit" gives me the impression that you don't know very much about LACs
As the link I posted illustrates , if you are interested in graduate school, percentage wise you are more likely to successfully receive a PHd if you graduate from an LAC than a University. That is a pretty compelling reason right there. Of course many who attend Universities are interested in entering the work force instead of grad school, and the larger alumni pool does give those students more contacts ( if they use them).
If you had limited your observation to that "you could not see yourself attending an LAC", that is much different than not being able to understand others preference, except that of course they may like" that sort of thing".
Personally I think there are several school where students can be equally happy and successful, but a better fit may result in a better out come.
Students also change a lot from fall of senior year to fall of freshman year and a school that seemed like a great fit, may not be what they thought they were looking for after all.</p>
<p>emeraldkity4, I understand your point about my comment about me not understanding why anyone would want to attand and LAC (or whatever I said). In fact, when I wrote that, I contemplated rewording it because I knew it was going to send the wrong message. Instead, I opted to end it with a statement of it being my opinion so as to not think of a way to reword it. In other words, I got lazy. I stand corrected. I did not mean it the way it sounded. I understand perfectly why someone would want to attend and LAC. What I meant to say was that, given my preferences, I cannot (in a philosophical sense) understand why someone would choose an LAC as their ideal place to study. I only mean that since I would not make such a choice I cannot understand how someone would not make the same choice as I would. I hope I am being a bit clearer now. I can see how someone else can make that choice but I cannot see how they can make that same choice from my point of view. Get it? I just had too many philosophy classes for my own good. No but seriously, LAC's are wonderful for people who like "that sort of thing." ;) I just happen to be one of those people who prefer the OTHER sort of thing.</p>
<p>"LAC's are good for people who like that sort of thing. The list I made was only a generalization; in general those things I mentioned are pluses for larger schools but they still do not carry the implications that one cannot be happy at an LAC. Apparently many people are in fact happy at little schools." </p>
<p>Oh, that is what the L stands for in LAC.</p>
<p>I also did want to add shyboy that perhaps why I am a little "testy" when people talk about LACs is that there are many parents in my area who feel the way you do.
I have to admit that when my "brilliant" daughter made a "brilliant" choice for college, I wanted everyone to say/ " wow, thats a really great school, she must be really smart and you are such a good mother!" TIC
Instead of what half of them said which was " where? , oh thats a nice little school for kids who want that sort of thing".
Of course I knew it was a great school, and our friends who are informed knew it was a great school, but I am much more petty than I would like to admit, and I wanted everyone to drop to the floor when they heard of her acceptance or at least my in laws who have made snarky comments about her being in prep schools for the last 15 years. Alas they had never heard of Reed other than it is the "druggie queer rich kid school" :eek:</p>
<p>"I also did want to add shyboy that perhaps why I am a little "testy" when people talk about LACs is that there are many parents in my area who feel the way you do."
EK, I guess I have to admit to the same...but getting used to it.</p>
<p>But when I talk to my son, he says at his college, there is the feeling of very high expectations set by the professors and the school administration; and the feeling among the kids that they can go out into the world and do anything, anything! There is so much optimism and high ambition; that's why I don't understand comments like that at all.</p>
<p>That makes me feel so much better. I don't even know what this kid is talking about finding brilliant people only in research universities. My son is a freshman and has email conversations with the head of the Philosophy department on top of office hours. And this is not because my son is particularly aggressive or anything. This is a regular occurence among the student body. This guy has a Phd from U of Chicago, has a body of research dating back to mid-70s and has so many publications. One only needs to go to 'Google - Scholar' to see that or to Amazon to buy his books. Access of that kind by a lowly undergraduate is rare in my opinion.</p>
<p>At my daughters LAC her profs not only have lots of out of class time for discussion but every college employee receives a stipend for student interaction. Students often attend dinners at faculty homes, the woman who maintains the dorm takes kids to the airport when they miss the shuttle as well as makes them coffee every morning, my daughter has played paintball with the acting president and every year she went to see the New Harry Potter movie with some friends and her bio prof and his family. Different atmosphere at those little schools where the freshman class might be 400 but at a university that might be the size of your math class.
I realize some kids will do well anywhere, but at LACs I see some students thrive where I think at a big U, they would be lost.</p>
<p>Well, the response to that (I am playing devil's advocate) would be they don't want hand-holding! My response to that is, it isn't hand-holding. When an accomplished professor interacts with you, he is not hand-holding, he is treating you with respect and almost as a colleague worthy of having a conversation. His expectations of you go up as well as your expectations of yourself by interacting with this person. You learn in the process. This isn't hand-holding. Writing a paper and having someone grade it, versus detailed face-to-face comments from your teacher helps you. It isn't hand-holding.</p>
<p>The LAC's high interaction model is really the argument for college in the first place. Large universities with classes of 300 to 500 make me ask why not just go to video conferences and e-mail and abandon the residential school. LACs value added is the interaction that is so genuinely fostered and results in such high per capita successes in graduate schools. Seems to me the kids pushing for big univiersities want the anonymity of largeness and should be defending their choice, not the LAC kid.</p>
<p>Achat and emerald, that's exactly what happens at my daughters school. But not only the teachers, the classes themselves may have a different feel. For a field and natural science class my daughter took this fall they went on an overnight field trip, canoed down a river and then explored a cave. For the same class they took a boat ride down the Mississippi and stopped in various places to get soil samples. (Don't ask me how they did that). A good deal of her grade was on her journaling in different outdoor settings and then writing papers about what she observed. Her college has over a thousand acres and a restored prarie patch. Stuff like that just can't be had at a big U. For this same class she told me (after the fact) how she bombed the first test and then got a bad grade on her first journal observation paper. She went back to the professor and asked for clarification, he told her what he had expected and then she dug her heels in and did it for the next paper. She ended up with an A- for the class and knew she had earned it. The work ethic is high and the peer pressure is to do well.</p>
<p>My, a lot of people are getting defensive here! The fact of the matter is that students can receive excellent educations at 100's of universities and LAC because we are blessed with a wonderful higher education system in the USA. What other country has more than 3000 colleges to choose from! Why do(did) so many foreign students come here for undergrad and graduate education?</p>
<p>In my first post I listed a number of reasons why my son believed that a research university was a better choice for him. However he also applied to 3 LAC's(well 4-the fourth being a throw in because it took the common app and waived his app fee) and was very keen on Oberlin following our visit. And he used the F&M study to screen for LAC's which seem to overachieve with respect to their PhD production.</p>
<p>The bottom line is that, within certain bounds, education has much more to do with the talents and discipline of the individual student than the resources which colleges avail him or her. The Dale and Krueger study "proved" this fact and that is what my personal experience indicated so many years ago. And I suspect that preference is due in large part to the idealistic image conjured up in our minds: a leafy quad in a rural town or a stadium packed to capacity with proud students and alumni. Growing up in upstate NY I had the opportunity to be on the Cornell campus a number of times as a x-country runner and HS golfer. That became my image of the ideal college. While I could not afford to go there as an undergrad and migrated to Ohio and OSU, I returned there as a grad student like a homing pidgeon. </p>
<p>PS Achat and I amicably patched up our squabble via exchange of emails and as usual the issue was a deficiency in communication!</p>
<p>That's right, we did patch up the squabble and some of us are getting overly defensive here.</p>
<p>The "brilliant minds" comment got me going this time!</p>
<p>Emeraldkity4, how I can relate to what you said about your neighbors' reactions to Reed...!....When I talk to other parents at my kids' school ( a private country day school) about places like Amherst and Williams they look at me as if I said, "University of Kyoto"......its all about the huge state U's down here.....and I can't help thinking that it has alot to do with football..!..Why would you go to Amherst if you could go to Auburn, right?</p>
<p>Well, I believe in "hand-holding". I call it mentoring. Call it what you like. It is a method of education that goes back to the Greeks. </p>
<p>It's interesting that whenever they have any extra money, and want better quality students, the state universities set up "handholding" programs. They call 'em "honors colleges". </p>
<p>I don't see any Ivies promoting themselves on the basis of offering more and larger lecture courses, or more TAs. We might or might not think these are so bad. But the Ivies don't go out of their way to promote them as selling points.</p>