<p>dke:
I find it very hard to believe that the folks down there in football-land haven't heard that Amherst managed to knock off Williams this year in the biggest little upset in America :eek:</p>
<p>What Mini said as well.</p>
<p>"The Log" is an old iconic Williams tradition referring to 19th century president and professor Mark Hopkins, of whom it was said that the ideal college consisted of a log, with a student sitting at one end, and Hopkins facing him sitting on the other end--teaching, not handholding.</p>
<p>Driver, in your world (and mine) the Amherst Williams game was notable.....but down here LAC's are not on the radar screen......its cultural.....has absolutely nothing to do with $$ either as we live in a very upscale community....Just Gators and 'Noles......even the Ivies are a distant....curiousity....and isn't there a pub in Williamstown called "the Log".. ? I seem to remember going there at some point.</p>
<p>Emeraldkitty4, I was going to respond to some of Achats comments but decided to first go over the old posts that made me such an unpopular person in the first place. After reading over the old posts, I think I need to further clarify myself. When I said access to the most brilliant minds in the world I specifically put world famous professors in parentheses immediately following. In other words, I never intended to imply inferiority of the students. I just thought Id let you know so you dont continue to think I am a jerk. Well, at least you wont think of me as THAT much of a jerk.</p>
<p>Achat, before I begin a long debate with you I would like you to at least clarify your interpretation of what I said about having access to the most brilliant minds in the world. That way, if I was misunderstood I can clarify my statement without writing a long rebuttal. As a matter of fact, let me reword my previous comment so that you can yourself see if you understood what I was trying to say.</p>
<p>In general, one reason to attend a major research university instead of an LAC is the access to some of the most brilliant minds (i.e. world famous professors) in the world.</p>
<p>If you disagree with that statement then respond to me and we can each present our cases for our beliefs in this public forum. If you agree with this statement please respond as well so that I can forget about it.</p>
<p>Shyboy, I hope you will gain plenty of access to brilliant minds at your chosen university. If some of their brilliance were to rub off on you, it would go a long way for you to start realizing why your posts were deemed offensive by everyone on this forum. </p>
<p>No explanations or clarifications are necessary ... your message was abundantly clear, yet entirely forgettable.</p>
<p>"In general, one reason to attend a major research university instead of an LAC is the access to some of the most brilliant minds (i.e. world famous professors) in the world."</p>
<p>So my d. went to go access one, at that place that is supposed to have the largest number of those brilliant minds. They wanted her. When she asked about the brilliant mind that she wanted access to, she was told that he teaches ONLY graduate students, and that only in alternate years. And, no, she could not meet with him. </p>
<p>But his name remains first on the masthead.</p>
<p>(first, a disclaimer: this is based on my personal experience; i am not saying this is universal for all big universities, only that this can be possible in a big university.)</p>
<p>i go to a liberal arts college within a university. when i was first applying to colleges, i was strongly encouraged to apply to LACs. the idea of having personalized attention, and a small intimate school community sounded good, and my school counsellor stressed that i would receive a very good education at an LAC. after getting into a whole bunch of LACs, i did some visiting - and realised that i wouldn't be happy in an LAC environment. there seemed to be too much hand-holding/spoonfeeding - which is a bit different from mentoring, i think (or at least, the spirit of mentoring that was, like mini said, initiated by the Greeks). i wanted to seek out things for myself and choose those whom i approached to learn more from, rather than be the one chosen to be taught.
i don't mind big lecture theatres with lots of students here - because they are generally for intro-level courses. it makes my learning more flexible, in a way - because i can skip lectures for these intro-level courses, learn the material in my own time, and still do pretty decently. in a way, intro-level material doesn't require as much discussion and a small-class-setting because it is fairly straightforward and simple. but for more advanced courses, the class sizes here are smaller and much more intimate - which is lovely and conducive for discussion and critical thinking! it's just the right balance (for me anyway) that stresses the right focus for different levels of difficulty: the basics taught to the masses, but the more advanced material taught in a much smaller group of people.<br>
and though i know not all people like TAs - personally, i love the TAs i have, and i've come to form some good relationships with some of them: they lend me books, they talk to me outside of class, they're young enough to seem more approachable than professors and old enough to be more mature than my peers in general. i know this doesn't apply to all TAs, and maybe i seem to have landed on gold if i speak so glowingly of my TAs - but my relationships with them didn't just happen out of the blue; they started because i took the trouble to find out what academic areas they were/are passionate about (if you are a grad student, you're usually passionate about -some- area of academia!) and i would stay back after class to discuss things with them. same thing goes for some of my professors: i looked up their specific interests, decided whether i shared those interests, and if i did, i approached the professors after class/ during office hours and discussed things with them. it's been great. :)
also, i know this has been brought up a few times already, but - i feel graduate schools add a lot to one's learning experience. (at least, for mine, it has been the case.) half of my social circle is made up of graduate students, and i appreciate their company because i feel it's more...okay to be nerdy amongst them. (i can babble on about my views on classical economics, sociology, etc - and they will take a genuine interest in what i say, instead of just humouring me or nodding without really understanding.) i'm taking a graduate level course next semester, and i wouldn't have had this opportunity to do so if i were at an LAC.
i know that big universities may not work for everyone, but these are some of the aspects that have appealed to me - just thought i'd share on that. :)</p>
<p>sangria, it doesnt matter if you put a disclaimer or not. These parents dont care about people's opinions at all. Gone are the days when the parents forum was the place for a respectful discussion. These people only want to be correct and seem to hate people who dont think like them. If people here dont treat me with respect, I sure as heck am not going to try hard to be nice to them. </p>
<p>xiggi, for your information, I do not need to choose a university. I have a masters degree already. And no, I still cannot understand why everyone is getting so insulted. Also, I'm glad you do not need any clarifications because I meant exactly what I said. Instead of trying to "forget" what I said because you dont like it, instead why dont you make an attempt at showing me how I am wrong. Does the truth hurt that bad?</p>
<p>Sangria. Nice post and thanks for sharing your experiences. We do like hearing other people's opinions, especially when delivered respectfully. I'm glad your experience at a liberal arts college inside a big university has been so rewarding.</p>
<p>I agree with a lot of what you say about the advantages of a research university. Sangria has expressed very well exactly why she wants to go to one as opposed to a LAC. Her reasons are exactly the same as my S's. And she presented them without condescending and raising other people's hackles.
It's not your message others object to, it's the delivery of it. Although I agree with your arguments in favor of research universities, I agree with everyone else about your condescending tone toward "little schools" and "people who like that sort of things." For someone with a Master's Degree, you sure are tone-deaf. If you cannot hear yourself, I doubt anyone can help you.</p>
<p>My experience attending Swarthmore College was one of lots of personal attention (small classes where you were expected to contribute actively, no skipping classes and getting the notes), but not handholding. I never saw a multiple choice test, even as a biology major. It was a much more challenging experience than my medical school at a major university. Both schools had excellent professors. The major university certainly offered a range of courses that no LAC would have. However, research universities will tolerate poor undergraduate teaching if the prof is a star in his field. LACs are all about teaching. I think you can obtain a superb education at either, but at the large institution you will have to go out of your way to get the good instructors and the personal interaction.</p>
<p>shyboy, I now understand your comments about world famous professors and I don't want to have a long debate with you. Anyway, my hackles are not raised now and you are right, the parents' forum should be a place where every opinion is respected but it shouldn't be a place where everyone is politically correct all the time (what a boring place then). </p>
<p>(Sorry for taking so long to respond, I had gone to the opthalmologist and could not read anything for the life of me! )</p>
<p>achat, thanks for the response. I still dont think I was being politically incorrect but...oh well! Then again, I never really like to conform to the norm in real life so who knows. Now I'm glad I didnt go off writing a long post and defending my claim/opinion.</p>
<p>marite, see this is what I am talking about. You specifically called me a name: tone-deaf. I am not going to get mad though. I have more important things to worry about. I wonder if anyone else will see how people have treated me since this discussion began when I first posted with my list on page 4 or something. It seems as though no one cares if people have treated me much worse than I have treated other people. I can understand misinterpretation. In fact, emeraldkitty4 misinterpreted me and I all but apologized because that was my fault. In fact, if this discussion were to have taken place in the war zone (outside of the parents forum) I would have not been so polite and would have not went out of my way trying to make peace. I dont think people should worry so much about the "tone" of a post as much as its substance. If someone were to get into an argument about the "tone," on average, I think they would lose because "tone" is very subjective. Just as an example, LAC's tend to be small and the word "little" is synonymous with small so when I called and LAC a little school there was technically nothing wrong with what I said. It doesnt matter though. I dont want to continue this conversation because I have tried to explain myself many times and seem to land on deaf ears. If you notice, no one has directly attacked anything on my list. Instead, they have attacked my posts, or even worse, they have done like you did and attacked me personally. </p>
<p>This has been interesting folks! Ill still check occasionally just incase anyone else feels compelled to personally attack me or to argue with my tone.</p>
<p>I said you are tone deaf and you said that your comments fall on deaf ears. You bristle at being called tone-deaf but expect others to have thick skin and ears impervious to "tone."
Your explanation amply illustrates the fact that you don't know how you come across to people. "Little" carries connotations that "small" does not carry. Try substituting "small" for "little" in "little old lady." As I said, I agree with most of what you said. I don't need to be persuaded. Indeed, if you search the archives, I have made many of the same points you are making, and made them several times over. But if you want to engage in dialogue with others who don't agree with you, attention to tone is important. </p>
<p>marite, The small old lady = the little old lady. One just "rolls off the tounge" better because it is said more often. Oh and why do you say it is a "fact" that I dont know how to come accross to people? Oh, is this really a "fact"?</p>
<p>Oh, and I have never said that "tone" was not important. It truly is important. The importance of it is demonstrated by how so many people here hate my guts just because of my tone. Actually, I wonder how much of this hatred actually stems NOT from my tone but from the substance of my posts. Tone is important but I believe it is not as important as substance.</p>