LACs vs HYPS

<p>My daughter is a freshman at Harvard and it is true that there are some classes that are quite large such as life sciences 1a in particular. This is course is a premed requirement and the class started off with ~700 students. There has already been significant weeding out of students however. Be that as it may, if students are too immature or intimidated to handle large classes like this, they probably don't belong there. My daughter has had no problem getting all the individual attention she has wanted with the professor in this class even though it is large. The student just has to take the initiative.</p>

<p>Besides this, I would like to know which LACs that are worth anything that don't also have a publish or perish philosophy for faculty to get tenure. In the sciences, this is almost universally true. All schools seek faculty that will bring the money in.</p>

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P / B / D all have undergrad-to-grad ratios roughly about 4:1 and all three do not have the "big three" professional grad schools (law, medicine and business).

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<p>:confused: Dartmouth has a business school.</p>

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Be that as it may, if students are too immature or intimidated to handle large classes like this, they probably don't belong there.

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<p>Those classes are infinitely easier to handle from the student's perspective. They just go, sit in the lecture, and take notes....or download the lecture notes during reading period. Small interactive classes are more demanding AND have been shown to be more effective.</p>

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Besides this, I would like to know which LACs that are worth anything that don't also have a publish or perish philosophy for faculty to get tenure. In the sciences, this is almost universally true. All schools seek faculty that will bring the money in.

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<p>Swarthmore, for one. There are plenty more. Professors are expected to have research interests and are given a full-paid sabatical semester after every six semesters of teaching to pursue those interests. However, research is NOT a profit center and professors are not expected to "bring in money". The research money that flows into the school is mostly targeted at student-supported research. For example, just about every science major can expect a paid summer research internship at least once during the four years if they want it. It is very different from the research university model where research revenues usually dwarf tuition and fee revenues.</p>

<p>As an interesting twist, many of the Faculty of Arts and Sciences at Harvard were not sold on Larry Summer's massive biotech initiative. Why? Because they knew that it was really a commercial R&D endeavor that would add nothing to the teaching sciences to Harvard undergrads. The move of universities into the commercial arena has been one of, if the not, the most significant changes in US education over the last half century.</p>

<p>I agree with interesteddad. Selective LACs will expect significant research and publication from faculty, but the amount of grant funding is typically not a make-or-break factor in tenure decisions, even in the sciences. Research areas that are particularly suited to undergraduate research and publication (undergrads at top LACs will often be co-authors on papers with their faculty mentors) are sometimes not the kinds that bring in big NSF-type grants, but this sort of research program, as long as it gets published in top-tier journals, is naturally highly prized at LACs. Ironically, top LACs often have the edge over research institutions when it comes to undergrad research opportunities.</p>

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Besides this, I would like to know which LACs that are worth anything that don't also have a publish or perish philosophy for faculty to get tenure. In the sciences, this is almost universally true. All schools seek faculty that will bring the money in.

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It's true that research tends to come second at LACs, but LAC professors are quite often research professionals in their field. Davidson's biology department boasts one of the foremost herpetologists, and up until a couple years ago Hope College ran one of the few paleontological digs open to undergrads. Swarthmore has a distinguished marine biologist on faculty, I believe. Many of the NSF-funded REU programs take place at LACs. </p>

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As an interesting twist, many of the Faculty of Arts and Sciences at Harvard were not sold on Larry Summer's massive biotech initiative. Why? Because they knew that it was really a commercial R&D endeavor that would add nothing to the teaching sciences to Harvard undergrads.

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If Harvard wanted to remain competitive and not be surpassed by a university like Stanford, that move was necessary. Biotechnology is THE arena for science right now, and most major biology research/graduate programs are geared toward that end.</p>

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Dartmouth has a business school.

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<p>That is correct banana.</p>

<p>I guess my wording wasn't exactly clear in my previous post, in order to clarify, none of those three schools (Princeton, Dartmouth, Brown) have ALL three big professional (med+bus+law) grad schools at the same school (e.g. P lacks all three, D has no law, B has no business or law)... comparatively speaking, the other Ivies (Cornell, Penn, Harvard and Yale) do have ALL three.</p>

<p>Basically, my key point was to underscore the undergraduate focus at (P/D/B) as evidenced by the undergrad:grad ratio and the fact that none of those schools offer all three professional grad schools.</p>

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I don't think this is true either. Although it would be interesting to do a study on it. I strongly suspect that on the metrics that matter to academics, such as # of articles published in top journals, # of citations, major research awards (i.e. the Nobels, the National Academies, etc.), the profs at the major research universities will tend to be more prominent than the LAC profs. </p>

<p>I'll put it to you this way. I believe that of all of the Nobel Prize Winners in Economics in the entire history of the award, not a single one of them was actually serving as a faculty member of a LAC at the time of award-winning. Note, they may have GRADUATED from the LAC, but they were not serving on the faculty. Similarly, it's hard for me to think of any Nobel Prize winners in Chemistry, Physics, or Physiology who were serving as LAC faculty members at the time of award. True, there are obviously more profs at the research universities than at the LAC's, but I still find it hard to account for the lack of Nobels at the LAC's, if the LAC profs are just as respected as the research university profs. The same could be said for most other research awards.

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<p>The type of research that wins someone a Nobel Prize is extensive, requiring many years of investigation, and expensive, usually employing very expensive equipment and numerous assistants. Hence, it is not often undertaken at LACs.</p>

<p>This discussion on LACs vs HPYS is somewhat entertaining. I know nothing in particular about Swarthmore. However based on personal experience, other than in community colleges which are heavily populated by adjunct faculty, most LACs care a great deal about research and it is important in getting tenure. Try finding a position in the physical sciences at most LACs without a list of publications and solid recommendations from a top notch research institution. If LACs cared more about teaching than research they wouldn't be hiring and touting the number of their faculty with Ph.D.'s.</p>

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.....most LACs care a great deal about research and it is important in getting tenure.

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<p>It's important..probably the second or third most important criteria in the tenure decision. But, I guarantee that you will never hear a professor a top LAC told, "Don't waste your time on teaching, it will hurt you..."</p>

<p>Let's get back to the question, because of smaller classes, excellent faculty(+/-research) do students get a more stimulating interactive experience at t5he top rated LACs?</p>

<p>A broad generalization, but there will likely be a wider variety of opportunities at HYPS, etc., and more encouragement and nurturning to take advantage of (a more limited set of) opportunites at LACs. </p>

<p>Go-getters will probably flourish in either environment; late-bloomers or the type of student who needs to hear, "you know, you really have a gift for this, why don't you consider an honors project . . . " might benefit from the culture of a LAC. A couple of trivial, but telling examples: it's not uncommon for profs. at LACs to have modest expense accounts to encourage entertaining students in their own homes. And at an LAC, it wouldn't be unusual to find that your chemistry instructor had shown up at your senior play, piano recital, or art exhibition or that your studio art teacher was there to hear you present your chemistry reseach. (Of course there are many caring, nurturing profs at research universities--there's just the sense at LACs that close contact with faculty is probably the #1 thing you're paying for.)</p>

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Let's get back to the question, because of smaller classes, excellent faculty(+/-research) do students get a more stimulating interactive experience at t5he top rated LACs?

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For a go-getter, the answer is a resounding NO. I'm attending a major research university, but virtually all of my classes (except two) have had fewer than 30 students, and most have had 15 or fewer. I just got an email from one of my former professors telling me about an information session for a study abroad program she thought I would be interested in. I haven't attended a LAC, but I think that's a pretty good example of the faculty-student interaction here. I'm on familiar terms with several department heads, and I've eaten supper with several of my professors. Research opportunities abound, and my university even offers a special research scholarship for freshmen or sophomores who want to do summer research with a faculty mentor!</p>

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Besides this, I would like to know which LACs that are worth anything that don't also have a publish or perish philosophy for faculty to get tenure

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<p>I would say practically all of them, including the top ones.</p>

<p>Note, that isn't to say that research isn't important AT ALL. Obviously it has significant bearing. But my point is, it is less important at the LAC's than at the research universities. It is a less weighted factor, and specifically, the tradeoff between research and teaching skills is far less pronounced. </p>

<p>Look, the truth is, all research univeristies, Harvard included, have some tenured profs who are just absolutely TERRIBLE teachers. They're brilliant researchers, but they're teaching skills are terrible. Either they're completely incoherent in speaking, or they clearly hate teaching and are only doing it because they are obligated to, or they deliberately choose to spend no time in preparing lectures, etc. </p>

<p>Consider some of these quotes from Thomas Sowell, himself a graduate from Harvard (an extremely impressive feat as he is an African-American who got into Harvard in the days before affirmative action when the entire higher education system was still racist). </p>

<p>"For example, Time magazine summarized criticisms of top Harvard professors as "too engaged in their own research, too busy with outside consulting or just too lordly to bother with anything so trivial as an undergraduate." ...Much the same picture emerges repeatedly in the Confidential Guide published by Harvard students, where another professor of government was described as "completely disorganized" in his lectures and "inept at managing classroom discussions." Words like "disorganized" and "rambling" appear again and again in descriptions of the lectures of particular Harvard professors in fields as disparate as music, anthropology, and women's studies. In a course on genetics, both the professor and his teaching assistants are described as "often inadequately prepared" and in an introductory chemistry course, "lectures have bordered on the incomprehensible...."A research star who actually considers teaching worthwhile," "one of the few professors who answers his own telephone," "everything that Harvard is supposed to be, but usually isn't."</p>

<p>Important as lectures are, opportunities for interaction with professors outside the classroom-in their offices or at informal gatherings-can also be an important part of an educational experience. However, according to a distinguished accreditation panel visiting Harvard in 1987, "only the most aggressive and persistent undergraduate" is likely to have any "faculty-student interaction outside of the classroom" with senior Harvard professors. Harvard is by no means unique in this respect, nor are junior faculty members or even teaching assistants always accessible at research universities. The junior faculty and the graduate students who serve as teaching assistants at many universities have other distractions and pressures that keep them from investing great amounts of time in teaching. Their whole future and that of their families hang in the balance while they try to complete their research, so as to establish themselves in their professions. Many graduate students never get the Ph.D. degree for which they have sacrificed years of their lives. Most junior faculty members at leading research universities are let go after a few years, except for those rare individuals whose research output marks them as stars to be given tenure. In short, junior as well as senior faculty at many universities have strong incentives to give teaching a low priority. The very process by which a top university maintains its prestige and visibility in the world can undermine the education of undergraduates.</p>

<p>The teaching role of graduate students at universities is far larger than many people-especially parents and high school students-realize. Harvard has about 400 people teaching who are not faculty members but teaching assistants, teaching fellows, and the like-usually graduate students, understandably preoccupied with completing their own education. Even when called "teaching assistants," they do much more than simply assist professors with grading exams or preparing science labs. Most of the classes in introductory calculus at Harvard are taught by teaching assistants. Many teaching assistants are foreign, and a recurring complaint in the Harvard students' Confidential Guide is that their English is often hard to understand. As for the advisory role of these non-faculty teachers, according to the Harvard Salient (a student newspaper), "academic advising can be a sad joke, often consisting of nothing more than a harried tutor's cursory glance at the study card. Many of us qualify as 'phantom students' who go through Harvard without ever meeting a full professor."</p>

<p>Those professors who enjoy teaching more than research are likely to seek out the small liberal arts college-or have to go there after being forced out of research universities for not publishing enough. Winning the "teacher of the year" award at a research university will carry very little weight when time comes to have one's contract renewed or to be voted on for tenure. In 1987, a Harvard professor whose credentials included such an award was notified that his contract would not be renewed. I personally know three other professors at three different institutions who were notified that their contracts would not be renewed after they had won "teacher of the year" awards. One referred to the award as "travel money." The issue of teaching versus research has been debated innumerable times and is unlikely to be settled any time soon. What is important to someone seeking good teaching is to find out where it is most likely to be found. At a top research university, where the professor knows that "publish or perish" are his career choices, it is unrealistic to expect that most will make teaching their top priority. To some, teaching is purely incidental."</p>

<p>Nor is this criticism specific to Harvard. Sowell also talks about UCBerkeley:</p>

<p>"The great state universities have similar problems, often to an even greater extent than Harvard and other large private universities. The University of California at Berkeley is unsurpassed as a research institution, its faculty have received many Nobel Prizes, its graduate programs rank above those of Harvard in several fields, and Berkeley is often rated number one among the nation's universities. However, none of this translates into an outstanding undergraduate education. At Berkeley, there are estimated to be more than twice as many graduate students teaching as at Harvard. In addition, Berkeley has large numbers of part-time junior faculty, who support themselves by having other jobs-and therefore other demands on their time besides teaching. Finally, the huge size of the university-more than 30,000 students-ensures that undergraduate education is impersonal, bureaucratic, and sometimes chaotic."</p>

<p><a href="http://www.leaderu.com/choosingcollege/sowell-choosing/chpter02.html#TEACHING%20VERSUS%20RESEARCH%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.leaderu.com/choosingcollege/sowell-choosing/chpter02.html#TEACHING%20VERSUS%20RESEARCH&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The point is that many research universities, Harvard included, have uneven teaching quality in that the profs are not particularly interested in research. That's not to say that everything is perfect at the LAC's. But I think in general, the profs at the LAC's tend to care more about teaching than the profs at the research universities. </p>

<p>Heck I myself was just talking to Rakesh Khurana, professor at Harvard Business School, and he himself stated that doesn't think the teaching of Harvard undergrads is very good and that the teaching is better at the LAC's.</p>

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The type of research that wins someone a Nobel Prize is extensive, requiring many years of investigation, and expensive, usually employing very expensive equipment and numerous assistants. Hence, it is not often undertaken at LACs.

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<p>And that's exactly my point - that research is less prominent at the LAC's than at the research universities. </p>

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If LACs cared more about teaching than research they wouldn't be hiring and touting the number of their faculty with Ph.D.'s.

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<p>Nobody is saying that they don't care AT ALL. The issue is how much do they care? Like interesteddad said, it's not as important of a metric as it is at a research university. You really can get tenure at a research university while being an absolutely horrible teacher, as long as your research is good. I've seen it happen.</p>

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For a go-getter, the answer is a resounding NO. I'm attending a major research university, but virtually all of my classes (except two) have had fewer than 30 students, and most have had 15 or fewer.

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<p>I think your experience is rather unusual. I know many people who have attended a rather famous public research university that shall remained unnamed who have stated that all have stated, not once, did they ever have a class within their major (which for them was either a natural science or a social science) that consisted of less than 50 people. Not once. In fact, many of those classes would consist of over 100 people and a few approached 1000 students. Most of them knew none of their profs on a personal level. It got to the point that when one of them needed a prof rec for grad school, he had to introduce himself to his former prof for the first time who had no idea who he was, despite the fact that he got an A+ in the class. </p>

<p>It sounds to me like you're enjoying an unusually personal teaching experience at your research university. Good for you. But the same cannot be said for many other undergrads attending research univesrsity.</p>

<p>Which LACs do you feel are equivalent to the IVIES?</p>

<p>which Ivies?</p>

<p>HPY as one group and then all the others.</p>

<p>I usually try not to be too controversial but I'll lay it on the line. First off, I am a professor at a small university in the northeast. Although it is a "university", it is in reality a LAC. There is no way somebody is going to get hired in an scientific academic role without substantial publications. This isn' conjecture, it is fact. Yes it is true there is probably more emphasis on teaching vs research at a LAC once you have been hired. I am going to vent my frustrations out here. The system from elementary school up through college is out of whack. We have raised a generation of students who expect to be spoon fed knowledge without the "pain" required to learn it. LACs feed into this. I can't tell you how many students I and other faculty know at this school (well regarded school) who just can't take the time to think, who complain after they get bad grades because they never cared enough to ask when they didn't understand concepts. Starting from kindergarten, mommy and daddy complained about Johnny not getting the attention he needs. He then gets to college and expects to be entertained -learning is supposed to be like playing video games. In college, faculty are told that the student is the customer so you have to keep them happy. Teaching has gone from imparting knowledge to having to put on a show - heaven help you if you go for more than 20 minutes lecturing because that is the maximum attention span that most students have. We have to use the latest gimmicks to get students to do anything - how did people learn the previous million years. Well enough of my ranting. I know there are a lot of you out there who are having the same experiences. I've talked to a lot of faculty at other academic institutions. It is not just the professors at Harvard or wherever - it is the students.</p>

<p>DocT:</p>

<p>Your frustrations are certainly valid, although not entirely related to university versus LAC. The issues you are talking about are more related to the degree of academic engagement in the campus culture. There are examples of universities and LACs with a high degree of academic engagement and, unfortunately, a low degree of academic engagement. </p>

<p>My guess is that the most common student question at a low academic engagement school is, "Will this be on the exam?"</p>

<p>I know from my college experience that it is a lot more rewarding when the student enjoys the opportunity to dig into the subject matter -- not to get a grade, but simply because it's interesting. I'm sure the professor, in turn, gets positive motivation from a class full of students who are actually engaged with the material.</p>

<p>It was fun, as a father, to pick up college daughter and her roommate at the airport for Christmas break and hear them both raving over dinner about a History course they had just completed and recounting memories from the class, both the professor and students. Then, to come home and read a posting from the professor (Tim Burke) on his blog about the same course:</p>

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I was really satisfied with the Image of Africa course this past semester. The students were great, we had good discussions, the mix of texts seemed to me to work. I felt less obligated to “coverage” than I had in the past, and stuck with what generated reactions. One of the most satisfying things to me, though, is that I thought we began to zero in on a more sophisticated way to think about what kinds of consequences representation has in the world, of the relationship between representation and action.

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<p>I was not surprised. This same professor had posted about the syllabus for the course the previous June and had several of his students e-mailing back and forth to each other (during summer break) about the focus of the course. That's the perfect storm of an engaged professor and engaged students that makes it fun for everyone.</p>

<p>Do I think that a liberal arts college, with the focus on undergrad teaching, is more conducive to these perfect storms? Yes. But, I think more important than size for potential applicants is to really consider the campus culture and whether it encourages both professors and students to be fully engaged in learning. Interestingly, there doesn't seem to be a particularly ironclad correlation between USNEWS rankings and this kind of academic engagement.</p>