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Perhaps UCLA engineering grads were able to find employment after they got their engineering degree and didn't have the need to get a PhD like the LAC grads did.
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<p>My point exactly in an older thread. LAC students going in great numbers to graduate school suggests that the student body in certain highly selective LACs is more academically-inclined than the student body in a large (not-so-selective) state university like UCLA. It also suggests, as UCBChemEGrad has said, that a LAC degree is not normally seen as a terminal degree (unlike perhaps an UCLA B.S in engineering for example) and, therefore, moving on to a graduate or professional school is not only a natural choice, but also actually something a LAC graduate will have to do to advance his/her career.</p>
But the LAC advantage -- as was, in fact, acknowledged later in the post -- is that the professors at LACs are selected and promoted primarily based on their ability to teach undergraduates. The professors and TAs at universities aren't. Let's face it, at some universities, you can't even count on your math TA to be fluent in English
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<p>Colbert,</p>
<p>I have no disagreement with the point you make (actually, I was fully aware of Williams' excellence in math teaching before you brought it up). The point I was trying to make is that college IMHO is not a mere extension of High School
and, accordingly, one should not pick college courses based on criteria one would use in high school, e.g. which class has the best or "nicest" (most supportive) teacher. </p>
<p>For a college student, it should make sense to sit in a Nobel winner's lecture even if he/she is a lousy teacher, because you may get certain insights from a top researcher that go far beyond whether that particular "teacher's" class will help you to ace the final or not. Again, a college student should break free from the high school mentality and think more like a young scholar/scientist. Of course, other people think differently and may feel more comfortable in a more protected LAC environment with a lot of academic supervision, sympathetic teachers, etc.</p>
<p>Who cares if some professors have Nobel prizes if they can't teach? How can you get insight into anything let alone their research if they lack the ability to explain it well? And how much groundbreaking research can really be taught in undergraduate lectures anyway? You think students in an undergraduate physics course in EM will completely understand a Nobel physicist's research? How could that even be totally relevant to simpler undergraduate topics?</p>
<p>Mudd sends a higher percentage of it's students to graduate school than MIT does. It's hard to believe, I know, since we are all immature highschoolers who need to be babied by our professors. Whereas MIT students are all mature intellectuals participating in groundbreaking research and smoking a pipe with their famous professors.</p>
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Perhaps UCLA engineering grads were able to find employment after they got their engineering degree and didn't have the need to get a PhD like the LAC grads did.
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And perhaps not. I think it's more likely that those who leaned toward academia (as engineering professors) and research chose schools that best prepared for those jobs, and those who leaned toward working professionally chose schools that best prepared for those jobs.</p>
<p>As a terminal degree, a BS in engineering from a large university has some clear advantages over a LAC BS. It's probable that the university engineer will get have more specialized training, get more exposure to cutting-edge issues, wil meet more on-campus recruiters, and will leverage a much larger alumni network. </p>
<p>But -- the BS will not be the terminal degree for most engineers starting careers today. Sure, that was the pattern a generation ago, but not any more. Most engineers starting out today will ultimately earn at least a Master's degree (MS or MBA).</p>
<p>You can see this change in the historical degree</a> statistics. Twenty-five years ago, in the early 1980s, there were nearly 4 BS degrees in engineering issued annually for every MS. Obviously the engineering MS was relatively uncommon. But now, that same ratio is down to less than 2 to 1. And that doesn't even include MBAs, which many engineers pursue instead of the MS.</p>
<p>LACs are very strong at placing their BS engineers in graduate or professional schools, but are probably weaker at placing them with employers. However, as more and more engineers of all kinds go on to graduate or professional school, this becomes less and less of an issue.</p>
<p>By the way, I had a "famous researcher" as my linear algebra professor last year. He has a wikipedia page and theories named after him. He was a full professor at Princeton before coming to Mudd.</p>
<p>Let me tell you that he was the absolute worst teacher I've ever had in my life. He looked either at the floor or the board all the time and was totally confusing. He is certainly a genius but what did I get out of that class? Nothing. 50% of the people in that class started going to a different section and there were some days when literally 6 people showed up for his class (and half slept). </p>
<p>However, as my man bruno said, I did get to see some groundbreaking research! The last day of class he brought in a game he helped develop in the 80s and struggled to win it for about 5 minutes then rambled about how linear algebra was used in the game.</p>
<p>He's a pretty good representation of university professors: solely concerned about their research.</p>
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Re: atomicfusion's post: Mudd students seem to have an inferiority complex.
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<p>That's odd. I've found that Berkeley students have an inferiority complex too. Don't they get really upset when Stanford students chant "Safety" during football games?</p>
<p>This thread has now deteriorated into the "LAC v. University" debate once again. However, may I point out that this was not the OP's question? The OP asked very specifically about LACs and LAC-like environments. He didn't ask "Should I go to a university or a LAC for engineering?"</p>
<p>Could we just accept the OP at face value, consider that he knows his own preferences, and just might want a LAC education, and knock off the endless sniping???</p>
<p>My son has looked at a few LAC schools with engineering. I have found it difficult to get information about admissions for engineering from LACs. Many say that they admit to the school in general and then let students decide where they want to concentrate. This seems a little strange to me. Wouldn't someone from engineering be reading these applications and having input into admissions decisions as well? Two schools did not have tours of their engineering programs. These responses have made us feel that the LACs aren't very strong in engineering as they do not appear to be looking for students who have demonstrated a strong interest in this area or the students most able to benefit from what they have to offier there. </p>
<p>I did not see Villanova listed as an LAC engineering school. Their School of Engineering is ranked in the top 10 for bachelor's level schools (9th?). I am not sure how to view that in relation to the school's that have doctoral degree programs but it is another LAC option. </p>
<p>The 3-2 programs seem a little disruptive although many of them have the student leave junior year, return senior year and go back to engineering again the final year. Seems very chaotic and I wonder how students fare during and after these programs?</p>
<p>warblersrule86, I'm guaranteed admission into Rutgers. I'm guaranteed admission with at least full tuition. Since I'm in-state, I'd be commuting. I don't know if I'd need another safety. I had Lehigh on there, but they don't offer biomedical engineering. If a school offers specialties, then that's what I'll do, but if they don't then that's fine. Two of the LACs I've listed have BME tracks, so that's why they are still suitable.</p>
<p>If anyone is curious, I want to go to medical school, and these LACs have just as high a rate of placing their students into top grad schools as do the Ivies. Plus, they interest me.</p>
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warblersrule86, I'm guaranteed admission into Rutgers. I'm guaranteed admission with at least full tuition. Since I'm in-state, I'd be commuting. I don't know if I'd need another safety.
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Yes, but many bitter students come on CC in April complaining that they were rejected at all of their colleges and have to "settle" for their safety. I wasn't sure if you'd be happy with Rutgers if you were rejected everywhere else.</p>
<p>I forgot to mention when I made this thread that I'd like to go on to medical school after undergrad. How good are LACs at placing their students at top med schools?</p>
<p>Rice is GREAT for engineering - only 3000 undergrad students, 1:5 prof to student ratio, meets full financial need, music conservatory, lovely campus, and LAC-like friendly feeling with kids in residential colleges - also cutting-edge research and specialized engineering degrees. I think about 1/4 of kids are in some engineering program.. rest in architecture,humanities,social sciences, music conservatory, etc. Just my plug :)</p>