Latin vs Greek?

Parents Forum
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<p>My son is currently in 9th grade doing well. He is taking Latin, his worse subject and getting a B+. He is in the process of selecting courses for next year and he has applied for honors algebra 2, honors history, honors chemistry, and honors English. He was planning on taking Latin 2 next year until he got a letter from the school telling him that because of his grades and performance so far he is being offered a chance to take honors Greek. He is so not a grammer/language kid, although he did score 71% verbal on the SAT in 8th grade. </p>

<p>So based on that information, should he take honors Greek next year or stick with Latin 2? What is the benefit of taking Greek over Latin? </p>

<p>Thanks.</p>

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<p>This is a tough one. Clearly, the school is offering him a special opportunity that goes only to the better Latin students. On the other hand, some colleges prefer that applicants have three or four years of the same foreign language, rather than one or two years of each of two languages. Assuming that your son cannot take both Latin and Greek next year, switching to Greek means having fewer years of one foreign language. </p>

<p>Perhaps he should talk to the guidance counselor and ask whether previous students who switched from Latin to Greek got any grief from college admissions officers about switching languages in mid-high school.</p>

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<p>How many ancient Greek classes are offered at the high school? I suspect the school is actually suggesting adding Greek, not supplanting Latin with Greek. Look at how many years of Greek are offered, and the quality of the instruction, before your son drops Latin, especially if one of these ancient languages will be fulfilling the high school language requirement that some colleges will be sticklers about.</p>

<p>FWIW, my son took Latin through AP Vergil, and two years of ancient Greek. Both were interesting to him, largely because he is a history fan, and the classes provided a nice opportunity to cover some ancient history. Greek has the added feature of learning a new alphabet, which appeals to those who look at languages as a code-cracking endeavor. Some kids have trouble with that.</p>

<p>Another FWIW: my son didn't use either of these ancient languages to fulfill college expectations. He also studied Russian. I have been told that some colleges do not count Greek or Latin as a "foreign language", but I don't think I believe it.</p>

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<p>I am surprised that a B+ student would not be allowed to continue in the language.</p>

<p>Latin is a much more logically structured language than Greek. Its grammar is clearer, but it is also less poetic. I started Latin in 6th grade and added Greek in 8th grade, which was the normal sequence in French schools pre-1968. The first year of any language is boring, and Latin probably more so than most languages as it seemed to consist mostly of conjugations and declensions. But I also found the readings (Caesar, Cicero, Ovid, Vergil) less inspiring than those we had for Greek (Homer, Plato, Thucydides).
If your son is not a grammar buff but would enjoy learning about Greek myths and discussing ethics along with his translations, he probably would like learning Greek more than Latin.</p>

<p>Edit: My mathy son who enjoyed Latin because of its logical structure, used it to get out of the foreign language requirement at his college. He'd had 3 years of Latin.</p>

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<p>@ mamom</p>

<p>I agree with Marite. Your son should continue to take Latin. I had four years of Latin in high school. It wasn't always my best subject either. It is a more useful language than ancient Greek. Latin will get more interesting, especially if he is into ancient Roman history.</p>

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<p>I've read in various places that Greek is especially impressive to college admission officers, largely for reasons that have already been given in this thread. </p>

<p>For someone who wants to learn how to learn languages, I recommend the webpage </p>

<p><a href="http://learninfreedom.org/languagebooks.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://learninfreedom.org/languagebooks.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<ol>
<li><p>I've never heard of a college not accepting Latin as a foreign language. While many Latin students do take another language (which is often Ancient Greek), many do not, especially if their interests also run to science-y things. At my kids' high school, scheduling issues essentially made taking two languages at a high level impossible.</p></li>
<li><p>I started Latin and Spanish at the same time in 7th grade, and I found first-year Latin infinitely more enjoyable. Spanish was taught in a haphazard way, and a lot of time was devoted to learning how to say inane, pseudo-conversational things like "Juan y Maria caminan a la tienda y compran leche." In Latin, there was no pretense of conversation, and the structure of the grammar was clear and logical. Plus, the basic vocabulary was far more exciting: "Marcus Manlius Gaulam vasta feminasque rapuet." (Yes, that was an actual sentence from my first month of 7th-grade Latin.)</p></li>
</ol>

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<p>I was unclear, he can continue with Latin, but was also one of the few boys in 9th grade offered the option to switch to honors Greek, probably based on his GPA rather than his performance in Latin. I suspect they don't have a lot of kids applying for honors Greek and are trying to sell the language.</p>

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<p>Is he also taking a modern foreign language? If so, I will play heretic and ask you why he would want to take an ancient language at all, especially if he is not getting top grades in the subject. It's my opinion that you shouldn't take an ancient language unless you have a really specific reason to do so. (Being really interested in it is a perfectly good specific reason.) For example, he might want to take Greek if he is interested in reading the New Testament in the original Greek, or if he thinks he might be a classics major, or if he is particularly interested in poetry, maybe. I think both Latin and Greek are overrated with regard to helping you with English, though, and Latin really doesn't help that much any longer with law and medicine. Again, if this is his only foreign language, he may need to continue to meet college requirements--but think about whether this is really the best elective for him.</p>

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<p>"Mortua lingua sola est bona."</p>

<p>"The only good language is a dead language."</p>

<p>My advice is stick with the Latin for now and tackle Greek in college if he is still into classical languages then.</p>

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<p>OK--a couple of other thoughts, then. If he switches to Greek, will he have enough "foreign language" for colleges? I have no idea how they treat ancient languages in this regard.
The other thing: I took both Latin and Greek in college, from the same professor. For whatever reason, I found Greek to be easier and more interesting. I also thought there were more things that I might actually want to read in the original in Greek (for me, primarily the New Testament). To me, learning a different alphabet was cool. Your mileage may vary.</p>

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<p>I think he should stick with Latin. Why switch when he's just now getting a handle on the basics of the first language? You say he's not a grammar/language kid, but he may enjoy the predictable, logical structures in Latin (though it's also a very grammar-heavy language; I've found students who have taken Latin have a much better grasp of English grammar than peers who have taken, say, Spanish).</p>

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<p>Might he have a future interest in studying such things as theology or comparative religion? You wouldn't know that today, but at his age, if he has a hankering towards talking about "Philosophy" that's indicative of the kind of student who might someday consider studying Religion. Which doesn't mean one is religious. Academic studies in Religion or Comparative Religion at a secular university today is a wonky kind of thinking about how beliefs stimulate actions in many historic cultures. My D majored in Religion, taught this way.</p>

<p>If so, Greek is a very interesting and important link. For example, since the New Testament was first published in Greek, those translations from specific Hebrew words of "Old" Testament caused some historic misunderstandings among Judaism and Christianity. The Hebrew word na-arah means "young woman" but when describing Mary, the Greek narrative translated na-arah into "virgin." Tracing those language stories leads to many larger inquiries into the history of the Western World! Does that excite him or motivate him?</p>

<p>If your family reads or follows the New Testament in English, I can assure you that some kids do enjoy seeing an important, familiar English text in its original form, following along line-by-line in two books, to translate it and make discoveries. </p>

<p>Coming down to this earth, I think as a Mom I'd want to know two things
as possible key issues for his age and situation. First, the difference between reading in the familiar alphabet versus a new code (such as Russian, or Hebrew) is either exciting or impossible, depending on the student. I know this because I teach Hebrew to teenagers who are just trying to read it phonetically and for basic vocabulary, to read texts (prayers) without engaging in modern conversation. Some kids grasp onto the fun of decoding new shapes and letters, then go on to enjoy that they are phonetically dependable to read and pronounce. There's none of this tricky English business of "uff" "ough" "through" "though"... if you decode a letter it will always sound like an "oo" every time. Some kids like that dependability very much, but they must work hard at first to crack the visual code to first recognize each letter. After that, each letter is your dependable friend. By read-aloud practice, you become a fluent reader before too long.</p>

<p>Secondly, is there something going on at school where they are trying to build up class numbers to hire a new Greek teacher? Or is it a known teacher who'd like to begin a Greek class? Either of these could be very good scenarios, but it's good to know why they are recruiting him in to Greek. Be sure it's not just to fill up a quota of some kind, and instead be based on his true interests.</p>

<p>I think switching languages after just one year's investment makes sense sometimes.</p>

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<p>My kiddos always took spanish to meet their 3 or 4 year requirement but in sophomore year of high school daughter decided one her "electives" would be Latin. Since we are on 4 X 4 block she was able to fit in a lot of Latin along with her necessary Spanish and surprisingly my science/math lovin' English/grammar hatin' daughter LOVED Latin.</p>

<p>She is now a junior in college, still pre-med but as a Classics major with a Latin and Greek minor! And she still loves Latin and Greek, who would have thought? Not me! Her enthusiasm was so contagious she got her math/science/econ jock brother to also take a Greek class and a classics class at his university 3200 miles away. Surprise again he too loves it. Is taking another Greek class this semester as an elective.</p>

<p>Now she did say, for her, Latin is easier to learn than Greek but she ENJOYS her Greek classes more. She and son also enjoy the Greek history classes more than the Latin ones. He actually is pleasure reading some of her texts from her other Classics classes. He just doesn't have room in his schedule for more Greek so he is happy with his one class and outside reading.</p>

<p>Since they are both D1 athletes in sports not known for having Classics majors (they do get teased a little bit) I was surprised they have ENJOYED their classes/studies so much in this area.</p>

<p>To the OP- how many classes does your son get in his schedule? Can he take both Latin and Greek and if he really favors one over the other then he could choose? Or if he feels great about both could he fit both into his schedule?</p>

<p>Kat</p>

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<p>He has room for 7 classes, which includes a mandatory health and a mandatory religion class. So he really doesn't have space to take two language classes, which he would never do anyway. He does love history, his favorite subject, but probably not enough to subject himself to a language class.</p>

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<p>Hm. Sounds like he's not wanting to double up, so the question is as you asked it: should he continue with Latin as a B-plus student (his weakest grade, we should all be so lucky..) or drop it for Greek. Do I get this right, that what you call his weakest grade is nonetheless so prized by the school that it made him eligible for this new honor? Life is funny sometimes. </p>

<p>Will the school let him substitute one for the other, or only do it if he adds Greek onto Latin and continues with Latin? </p>

<p>A different angle: I know you said he won't take 2 languages. But is it possible to give up Lunch? Everytime my kids had a conflict with schedule, they solved it by giving away their lunch period and eating brown-bag in a class instead. Two of them were also trying to avoid rough scenes in a public h.s. cafeteria, while your kid might really enjoy lunch as a positive time. </p>

<p>An earlier poster suggested trying out both languages and then dropping the one he doesn't care for. Perhaps by foregoing lunch period (eat in a classroom, don't skip the meal) for a few weeks, he might determine first-hand which language to drop, and then go back to 7 periods.</p>

<p>It sounds as though you have a flexible and good private school there. My kids all went to public schools, where cafeteria time caused them more harm than good, so they dreaded that room. </p>

<p>In better schools, lunch with peer students is as valuable as class learning. YMMV. (That's "your mileage may vary" not the Tetragrammaton, the 4 Hebrew letters making up the name of the deity..Oops, there goes that Greek again!)</p>

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<p>Latin is more generally useful than Greek. You'd need a real reason to want to study Greek. If he loves history as you say, Latin could come in VERY handy down the road. Greek is much less likely to come in handy, unless he is interested in philosophy or theology. Even if you were interested in philosophy and theology, Latin might be more useful than Greek, depends on your area of focus.</p>

<p>Seriously though, for someone not interested much in languages, the different alphabet alone is a serious annoyance.</p>

<p>I have no ideas how colleges would view things, obviously Greek is much less common than Latin, so that might be a bonus.</p>

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<p>I took 4 years of Latin, 3 of Greek. When I got to engineering school, I realized I probably should have loaded up on math & science... In encouraging the Classics honors, my principal assured me "they'd give me plenty of math & science in college." Did they ever!</p>

<p>That much dead language coursework is great for word roots, Jeapordy, and exposure to obscure battles and out-of-fashion deities (which is what they tended to write about back then). I do think it's a great intellectual exercise, makes learning Romance and other European languages easier, and probably appeals to some college admissions types. What says "love of learning" more than studying languages that nobody speaks? :)</p>

<p>If I was headed toward Classics, or perhaps even some other Humanities fields, I'd do the Greek, or Latin & Greek. The case is a little less persuasive, IMO, if the dead languages end up replacing classes that are needed to prepare the student for college coursework.</p>

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<p>I can't really see a big difference in 'usefulness' between the two languages. I took Greek in college just for fun, and I enjoyed the historical and philosophical reading. </p>

<p>When my son signed up for Greek, he didn't have any "real reason" to do so except that it looked interesting.</p>

<p>"Useful" would probably limit us to Mandarin, Arabic and Spanish.</p>

<p>OK, a late edit to my post: I'll add Russian to the "useful" list, only because my son is still studying it and seems to think it will prove useful. My daughter studies Spanish in hs, and will take Spanish 4 as a junior, then she, too, plans to go to the local Univ. to take Russian as a senior--so evidently she thinks it is "useful" too. She did not care for Latin, and was glad to switch to Spanish.</p>

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