100 per year? Why did they cut it back?
They did not cut back. There usually were around100 kids applying for the 25 spots. This year they had about 90 applying for the 25 spots. its always been 25 spots. .
@Chrchill just about choked at seeing “LLS” and “rigor” in the same sentence. It’s a notoriously easy major that attracts a lot of applicants because of its reputation for easiness - pre-law students are very GPA-conscious for obvious reasons. It and Global Studies are the two political majors that somehow manage to be even less rigorous than the also fairly easy Political Science major.
If it were so easy wouldn’t we see more than 90 apply each year or, perhaps, see more than 3 students designate it as a 2nd or 3rd major? My D is taking one of the courses on the “list” (she’s another major but so many of the LLS courses are cross registered) and really enjoys it. Looks like it’s reading and writing intensive, which you’d expect. Lots of analysis of primary sources, which you’d expect. So where would the lack of rigor show up?
It’s easy because students exploit the open structure by taking fairly introductory classes in a bunch of different fields. Many admit to this strategy. They also don’t learn any field particularly well - e.g. you simply can’t get a passable understanding of philosophy through the Law Letters curriculum alone.
90 is a ton of applicants given that it’s a weird, difficult to explain major, that’s about as many applicants as there are political science majors in every class. The number is also typically a bit higher than that.
Every LLSO class is primarily listed in another field except for its intro seminar, as the only actual LLSO profs are Hutchinson and Hammond. Praise for the class should go to its real department, not Law Letters. As far as I know Hutchinson and Hammond have no influence on the teaching or syllabi of the classes that count for the Law Letters major. The classes I’ve taken on the list certainly did not emphasize primary sources at all, they were pretty typical intro lecture classes.
The order of majors is irrelevant except for what’s on your default diploma, it’s purely administrative. I’ve never actually heard someone mention it, people just say they’re double majors. Law Letters majors probably disproportionately have it as their first major because it’s what they choose to go for honors in given that the major requires a thesis regardless. People want their honors designation on their diploma.
@phoenix1616 No need to choke! But you are just totally wrong. LLS is highly respected and very competitive. The kids who apply already have high GPA’s and GPA is a key criterion in getting admitted to the program, Academic advisers tell prospective student that and send a special congrats if they get in. Doing well and getting honors in LLS is tough, and they plainly say that honors are granted sparingly. The open structure is not that easy to exploit as courses outside the listed LLS courses must be pre approved.
I’m guessing you have a kid in it or something? You’re being fed a lot of BS, sorry, the reputation of LLSO is not good. I’ve never heard anyone say it’s prestegious seriously - but I have heard many say it sarcastically! The list is not a solution, as it includes a lot of the easiest classes in the cognate fields, e.g. every philosophy class on it is introductory.
Most of the LLSO courses - or perhaps all of them - are considered intermediate/advanced if you go off the course number, and that’s true as well for most of the cross-listed courses. There may be one or two that cross-list with an “intro” History or English (the one I noticed was also a “signature course” - new designation this year?) https://college.uchicago.edu/academics/college-signature-courses Anyway, an obvious question is whether an “intermediate or advanced” course under one major that is cross listed as “introductory” in another means the first major is “less rigorous” than the second. Not saying this is true for LLSO - just curious about that.
Just realized that I confused two courses in my head - D is taking a course very similar to one of the “list” courses (including an overlap of prof, curriculum and readings) but it’s actually not included currently under LLSO. The prof. switches off teaching them - one this year, the other the next. Perusing the autumn course list for LLSO it appears that more are “seminar” rather than “lecture” so the potential to get intense and require a lot of reading and writing seems to be there (at least when you read the course description).
@phoenix1616 is most likely spot on that H&H do not influence specific department decisions regarding structure or curriculum - their influence might be restricted to including the course as part of the approved “list” and perhaps including LLSO majors in the registration priority queue (if such exists). Obviously they are in charge of the Legal Reasoning seminar and the BA thesis.
Agree that the the “survey” nature of many interdisciplinary majors does not provide sufficient mastery. However, hopefully the BA thesis is one chance to “go deep”. Also, this is a very flexible major so the opportunity to explore a topic in-depth (as opposed to skimming the surface of several topics) has to be there. Whether someone takes advantage of that opportunity is another matter. There are arguments pro and con. The BA itself is an “introductory” degree to some extent if your goal is graduate professional school, and there is certainly a vein of thinking in the College that students should remain broad in their curriculum choices. If the courses are taught well, then rigor needn’t be compromised. On the other hand, mastery of a topic must enhance someone’s experience base as well as the contribution to class discussions and study sessions; it also tests stamina and enables the student to delve into murky intellectual questions at a more sophisticated level of expertise.
Course numbers here are meaningless here. Of the courses I’m personally familiar with (about a third of them), the following would be appropriate for a first year:
Intro to Political Philosophy
Intro to Constitutional Law
Human Rights: Philosophical Foundations
Human Rights: Contemporary Issues
Human Rights: History and Theory
The American Presidency
Politics of the U.S. Congress
Contemporary African-American Politics
America in the Twentieth Century
The Declaration of Independence
These are basically an assortment of introductory classes in PLSC, HIST, PHIL, and HMRT. To be fair, there are also quite a few intermediate and advanced courses on the list - and it looks like they’ve added more classes at the Law School since the redesign. The issue isn’t that you can’t make it rigorous if you want to, it’s that if you want no semblance of rigor that’s not hard to accomplish.
Meaningless within the same band (2000s, 3000s, etc), I mean, obviously 2000 classes are different from 4000 classes.
“The issue isn’t that you can’t make it rigorous if you want to, it’s that if you want no semblance of rigor that’s not hard to accomplish.”
Agree. However, hopefully they can weed out the potential slackers in the admission process - as @Chrchill points out, these kids were already doing great in their Core studies (a portion of the curriculum that’s hardly known for rewarding the non-motivated). Perhaps that’s why they limit the number admitted - they allow in a select few who are expected to make the most, not the least, of the opportunity.
Just ruminations. No dog in this race and I have my own concerns about LLSO that would need to be addressed prior to encouraging someone to major in it. However, there does appear to be some potential to make it an interesting - and perhaps rigorous- major. We’ve known a few over the years who have embarked on some of these different multi-disiplinary choose-your-curriculum kinds of majors (one was the first to take the undergrad version of “Committee on Social Thought” which is about as broad as it gets . . . ) and they thrived. A lot depends on the number of required credits, the engagement with one’s advisors, and how self-directed one happens to be.
Semi-off-topic? How does this major relate to Fundamentals of issues and texts? My son, who at this point is thinking he’d like to go to law school, was considering this major. My push back to him, was you’d better make sure you’d want to go to law school… Both seem to be rather build-your-own-curriculum inquiry type programs.
@phoenix1616 Intro to Pol. Phil. is a 2000’s and cross-listed with other 2000’s: PHIL 21600, GNSE 21601, PLSC 22600. According to the College Catalog, 2000’s are intermediate-to-advanced courses. Are you saying that for certain majors “intermediate-to-advanced” is actually intro for others? Very confusing.
Here’s the wording and link from the Catalog:
“Unless an exception is noted, course numbering typically follows standard guidelines. Courses numbered 10000 are general education and introductory courses. Courses numbered 20000 are intermediate, advanced, or upper-level courses that are open only to undergraduates. Courses numbered 30000 and above are graduate courses that are available only to undergraduate students who obtain the consent of the instructor. Undergraduates registered for 30000-level courses will be held to graduate-level requirements. When a course is cross listed between the College (10000- to 20000-level courses) and graduate divisions or professional schools (courses numbered 30000 and above), College students may only register for the undergraduate number. Higher-numbered courses within each of these categories do not indicate increasing levels of difficulty.”
http://collegecatalog.uchicago.edu/thecollege/programsofstudy/
@BrianBoiler Could be mistaken but fundamentals might be exactly the undergraduate version of “committee on social thought” mentioned earlier. There is no pre-determined structure but there could well be one on the individual level. In fact, I’d bet on it. This major is not for everyone. It’s 1500 units so by no means “light” And requires a lot of self directed study and self-discipline to stay on track. My guess is that it’s for somebody who wants to do serious intellectual pursuit of a topic that doesn’t quite fit into the constraints of a conventional major or even an interdisciplinary one.The person we know who did something like this went on to get several academic graduate degrees including a PhD. Your student might want to have a heart to heart discussion with a potential major advisor about pursuing this course of study.For the right type of student it’s probably a “dream come true”. Given the maturity level needed to pursue something like this as well as the heavy amount of reading and writing it’s probably a great major if one is applying to law school later on. But that’s just a guess.
@phoenix1616 I know three students who have been accepted this year. Each one has a GPA of 3.6 or better in their first two freshmen terms, They are super thrilled to join the program. They did extensive diligence, including with pre law society and seniors, confirming the value and prestige of the program. Not sure what axe you have to grind against LLS, But you are wrong, Moreover, unlike other majors where students are free to select courses anyway they want, LLSO actually has a pre-approval requirement for electives outside the listed courses in letters and society. The list of pre approved core classes are rigorous, so much so that folks are advised to take only one per term.
@JBStillFlying I guess we’ll find out in September when he first meets the adviser. I’d love to be a fly on the wall in that conversation. He’s a kid that has always been an exceptional learner/thinker of abstract thoughts. A class like Comparative Government where most of his classes are working for a grade, he’s diving so deep into reading and analysis that really is cool to watch. We were touring London over Easter weekend and he’s telling me about how the UK government works and how this or that will never happen. Anyway, he’s also a kid that has never really been able to put his thoughts down to one potential field or another. I’m still a wee bit skeptical that he’d want to go to law school.
@BrianBoiler, the description of Fundamentals from the Catalog:
Activities of Graduates
The Fundamentals program serves the purposes of liberal education, regarded as an end in itself, and offers no specific pre-professional training; yet Fundamentals graduates have successfully prepared for careers in the professions and in scholarship. Some are now pursuing work in law, medicine, journalism, ministry, government service, business, veterinary medicine, and secondary school teaching. Others have gone on to graduate schools in numerous fields, including classics, English, comparative literature, Slavic, history, philosophy, social thought, theology, religious studies, clinical psychology, political science, development economics, mathematics, film studies, and education.
IMHO, this kind of major is the best example of what a liberal arts education can be. Probably too nerve-wracking for a lot of kids who want to be told what courses to take (or at least have a limited list of options). But it appears that it would prepare him for a variety of careers. So highly practical!
Would NOT discuss this with the general academic advisor but with the head of this program. The academic advisors are kind of there to make sure you have a path to graduation. My D’s was hardly useful and now has disappeared entirely (D was given an extension on pre-reg.) - which was fine since the advice was poor at best. He might float a trial-balloon but if the advisor doesn’t respond intelligently he shouldn’t sweat it. The Fundamentals guys will want him to get a good amount of the Core taken care of first anyway. He should definitely pay extra attention to what Core Hum. and Sosc. to take, sense these courses might give him some awesome ideas to pursue as a Fundamentals major.
“The list of pre approved core classes are rigorous, so much so that folks are advised to take only one per term.”
Is that really true? Or is it more that they are encouraged to spread the remaining 900 credits (total less Legal Reasoning less BA Seminar) out over the course of their time in college? Guessing it’s the latter. History, Poly Sci. or Pub Pol majors might easily take two of these at the same time in any given quarter.
"Moreover, unlike other majors where students are free to select courses anyway they want, LLSO actually has a pre-approval requirement for electives outside the listed courses in letters and society. "
- So it's individualized but not "unstructured". Definitely for the self-motivated - a good indication as to why they were selective about who's going in. The maturity level required to succeed is icing on the cake. No wonder law schools would love these types of students!
“I know three students who have been accepted this year. . . They did extensive diligence, including with pre law society and seniors, confirming the value and prestige of the program.”
- Ergo, UChicago's pre-law major. Just to put one more nail in the coffin on that issue before it's buried once and for all. For the benefit of those who might still be in denial about the purpose of the major.
From what I heard. about a third-half go to law school, and many of those pursue joint law -Ph.D degrees. Many LLS students also double major. I don’t think Chicago would have a problem naming it “Pre Law” or such, if that were the intent. After all, they have plenty of that in business and medicine. I don’t quit get why this is even an issue.
@Chrchill Baggage from other threads – or perhaps from earlier on in this thread. LOL