Law School from Big Merit Schools for Undergrad

Graduate School Law School
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This is a really critical point that should never get lost in any of this. It is never really over, not when you get admitted to college, nor law school, nor join a firm as an associate, or so on. If you are asking someone to trust you with important work, and compensation to match, you have to keep reproving yourself, because of course you do.

In a way, all the overly simplistic positions run afoul of this point in some way. Should you pay a gazillion more $$$ to a fancy college or fancy law school on the assumption that investment will automatically pay off for you? NO, you will still have to work for everything, and many people will not get what they are hoping for out of that path.

So should you assume that saving $$$ on college or law school will automatically get you the same places? ALSO NO, because other people will be doing the same things and you will need to work to prove yourself anyway. And many people will not get what they are hoping for out of that path either.

And that is life, right? You have to work hard, carefully assess your opportunities, be flexible when things don’t work out, keep working hard, recognize new opportunities when they come along, and on and on.

And people who have followed various paths can help you by sharing their experiences. But in the end it is going to come down to you, and there are many roads to Dublin.

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Exceptional point. I will add that you need to work very hard AND work very smart.

I know young lawyers who are on the treadmill to partner and some of them are honestly astonished that at some point they need to toggle from “The Best 5th Year Tax Associate in the firm” to “someone who is learning to develop business and solidify relationships with clients and potential clients”. And they are frustrated- “after all my hard work…” yadda yadda yadda.

Know the ecosystem you are working in. Preferably before you start! What it takes to become the firm’s subject matter expert on roll-ups and carve-outs isn’t the same rubric as what it takes to get elected partner- even in your own practice area.

And this advice cuts across professions and industries and sectors. Is the Superintendent of Schools in a large urban school district the person who was the best 3rd grade language arts teacher at their school way back when? Probably not. Is the CFO of a Fortune 50 company the person who knows more about goodwill accounting than anyone else- even the experts at FASB? Definitely not.

Career advancement is a lot more complicated than being the person with the best grades who works the hardest. Something that many people struggle with once they are actually in the working world!

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Circling back on this “sibling will only hire from ivy league” point that you made:
Is this the firm’s policy? Your sibling’s policy?
In either case, what’s the rationale?

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To anyone jumping in at this point, this post branched off (prior to @Gatormama 's comment aboveI) from a different post that was focused on undergrad choices. I had asked if the law school discussion, which wasn’t germane to the initial undergrad question but interesting on its own, could be its own thread.

I wasn’t looking for the subject matter in the title, but if that’s the topic that’s ok…it remains interesting.

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Your daughter’s 3.9 from UMich is outstanding. Also you will see that among the T14 law schools a couple of years of work helps in the very competitive admissions process.

I tried to get my daughter who graduated from Clemson in 3 years to work or go to the London School of Econmics (she was BS economics major) but for whatever reason she was hellbent on going straight to law school. She will graduate at 23 years old.

That said if your daughter ultimately decides she wants to go to law school she needs to really study for the LSATs to obtain the best score she can. With that, her outstanding undergraduate work and her year or two of work experience she will be well positioned for some great acceptances and potential merit money.

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Thank you! I think my daughter would have been hellbent like yours…had she not been a 2020 high school graduate. It took her longer to get acclimated to college (socially and extracurricular-wise) because of covid. By the time restrictions were lifted (she was masked in university buildings for most of her first 2 years) and she was really immersed and happy, the window to study enough to take the LSAT and apply this fall had more or less passed. Although she might have been able to do it had she prioritized it, she had a wonderful and fun internship in NYC this summer and chose to enjoy it and the city instead.

Her plan is to study this spring and summer and take the LSAT at the end of summer. Does anyone know, though, about the changes in the LSAT and how you would approach the timing of taking it? I know you are practicing attorneys and may be too removed from the nitty gritty, but your take is more informed than my own.

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The information I have seen is generally speaking, no, not as long as you majored in any of the well-respected liberal arts and sciences.

This makes sense because law school is still a form of general school, and if anything, the most important thing you can bring out of college into law school is just being really good at dense reading, documentary research, and expository writing. Which is what most lawyers actually do.

This is why, for good or ill, selective law schools become a popular destination for your 3.9 GPA Sociology major, and Classics majors, and Art History majors, and so on. Most of the world may consider them unemployable at graduation from college. But at least if they went to a good college, they very likely are actually quite good at those particular academic skills. Toss in a high LSAT, and that makes them a good bet to succeed in law school classes, maybe edit a law journal, and so on.

OK, so what about your 3.5 GPA engineer? Well, a high LSAT is a good start. But otherwise . . . what does that sort of college record tell us about these core skills for law school? I am by no means saying no engineer can be good at such things, but that 3.5 GPA in engineering is not really telling me that.

In other words, the hardest majors in college are usually hard because of the math. And while it can be helpful to be a good lawyer who is also good at math, you still need to be a good lawyer. And for most lawyers, that means being really good at reading, documentary research, and writing.

I don’t see anyone doing that.

But it is definitely wrong to think grades do not also matter. And again, I don’t see any good reason being offered to assume law schools will not go deeper into some college classes than others.

Like, it is theoretically possible only 2 Alabama applicants to Yale had the same LSAT scores as the 34 Columbia enrollees to Yale. But this is not to me an obviously sufficient explanation. Again, some high numbers kids actually do choose Alabama. For that matter, some people get better at these tests during college (I did). And Alabama has over 5 times as many undergrads at Columbia, with many thousands more opportunities for some of their kids to either start or finish capable of getting as good of an LSAT score as those 34 Columbia kids.

And it also didn’t happen at Ohio State. Or Penn State–zero in that sample, despite having one of the best-regarded honors programs (Schreyer) in the country. For that matters, Barrett is at ASU, has a lot of Fulbrights, and so on. 2. The aforementioned Clemson also has a very well-regarded honors program. 2.

Is it really true all five of these colleges combined, with something like 30 times the student population of Columbia, in-state tuition to offer, great merit and honors programs to offer, and so on, could only generate 7 total kids with the LSATs needed to Columbia’s 34?

Sure, maybe if we had the data, it would turn out that is exactly what happened. But I would definitely not feel safe assuming it absent such data.

Indeed, which of course cuts both ways.

Without belaboring the story, after a fancy college and fancy grad program (on fellowship), I ended up getting merit offers from a couple fancy law schools. And also entirely rejected by other fancy law schools.

The problem was I had a pretty so-so college GPA. But, I had a high GRE to get into the grad program, and a high LSAT. And I also got my not-so-great grades in a science, and did very well when I switched to a humanities.

Interestingly, I turned down a merit offer and honors program from a very good in-state university to go to my fancy college full pay. To be very clear, this was in an era where the financial stakes were way, way lower.

But still, did that fancy college give me the cushion I needed to go to a fancy grad program entirely on fellowship? Did all that ultimately help me go to a fancy law school with big merit?

We will never know.

But hypothetically, that decision to go to the fancy college may ultimately have saved me a lot of money later on. Or not. But again my point is being short sighted could potentially work both ways.

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My only knowledge is they removed the logic games which according to my daughter was the easiest to study for and to improve her score.

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In my case, I was on the hook for grad school. Dad wasn’t paying. MBA. I’m sure my undergrad (Syracuse Journlism and History) played zero part - but I had worked 6 or 7 years and had a solid (I want to say 87th or 90th percent) GMAT to go with my 3.1 UG GPA.

So I chose the we’ll cover tuition and give you a small stipend over IU (rated #7 at the time in 1996) and UT for #40 at the time ASU.

Would I be in a different place today? A higher earning place had I gone for the rank?

I doubt it but one never knows.

It’s all very interesting. A few schools do note they take a look at the undergrad course of study/difficulty - how much they do who knows - but at least at the top schools, the preponderance seem to have work experience. Not all - but most - so clearly a factor but maybe after that top round, it falls.

UF - as it was mentioned and is #22 - so obviously very solid - says this:

The College of Law gives substantial weight to numerical predictors of academic success (undergraduate grade point average and LSAT scores). Numbers alone, however, are not dispositive. The College of Law considers all information submitted by applicants. Factors such as the difficulty of prior academic programs, academic honors, letters of recommendation, or graduate training may provide additional information about academic preparation and potential. In some cases, demonstrated interest, prior training, or a variety of experiences may indicate that an applicant is particularly well-suited to take advantage of specialized educational opportunities.

Information about work experience, leadership, community service, overcoming prior disadvantages or commitment to serve those for whom legal services have been unavailable or difficult to obtain may show that an applicant is in a unique position to add diversity to the law school community or to make significant contributions to the practice of law.

The UF Profile does not note work experience - whereas Harvard says 82% were out one year, 69% two years. Cornell says 31% straight from college. Yale says average age is 25.

Georgetown doesn’t list work experience but they have a class of 600 represented by 215 colleges - so that’s interesting. I don’t see a list but with 215 it will have the elite and non elite.

Entering Class Profile - Levin College of Law Levin College of Law (ufl.edu)

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That was the deal in my family too. So, my highest costs (adjusted for time) were for college, and I finagled way less for grad school and law school. I want to believe Dad was proud . . . .

These of course are all possible entry points for college choice to matter. Florida could deem some colleges as more difficult than others. Top honors and recommendations can be more available per capita at some colleges. Graduate school placement can reflect all these same factors.

If all this sounds familiar, it is because a similar issue arises in highly selective college admissions. Just controlling for grades and test scores, certain independent private high schools seem to have far higher placement rates at the most selective colleges. Their unhooked kids still tend to have good numbers, but at these colleges numbers alone are not enough, and the frequency of admissions for the kids with good numbers from these high schools is significantly higher than normal.

There are a lot of reasons why that might be happening, but things like just providing more opportunities for honors, more opportunities for top recommendations, more opportunities for leadership positions, and so on, at least on a per capita basis, is likely a significant part of it.

Again, it is a good idea to keep in mind some of those kids are doing grad school. For that matter, some are Rhodes and Fulbrights and such.

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As to timing. I think the earlier the better as schools want to lock in yield so it seems like more money available and offers made early. Many are rolling admissions so some schools that might offer admissions in November may put you on waitlist when they are considered in February and March.

My daughter didn’t apply until December or in some cases January and I think that hurt her at the T14 schools. She got waitlisted at UMich, UVA, Vandy, and UT Austin. My guess is if she wanted to ride the wait list she might have gotten in to one of those. But unlikely any money. She had full tuition scholarships to UF, Minnesota and ASU. She was also accepted at UGA, Villanova and Richmond but interestingly less money at those lower ranked schools.

When UF threw in a yearly living expenses stipend she jumped at that with it being her best deal and at the time the highest rated of the three.

Also I would recommend applying broadly.

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That’s my understanding. My daughter thought the logic games were fun when she had briefly practiced questions, and she had passed the McKinsey logic screen during the internship interview process, so she wasn’t really excited about them going away next year. I just don’t see her having time to be ready before they are removed, though.

edited to add: I have no idea if the logic sections of the LSAT were similar at all to the consulting screens!

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Funny how UF made a very concerted effort to up its USNWR rankings. Just a few years ago the acceptance rate was over 40%. They made the acceptance rate lower in part by decreasing the size of the incoming classes.

I also note that my daughter’s 168 was at or above the 75%tile when she applied for the class of 2024. Now 75%tile is 171 or higher.

She has also felt that the career advising has been very centered with the top students to them getting big law jobs and federal clerkships. She has told me that she gets the sense they really push that again with USNWR rankings in mind. Not that there’s necessarily bad, but it kind of like the career people saying “you don’t want to waste that top 5% class rank” by doing anything different than Big Law or a federal clerkship.

Of course she did get a big law summer clerkship last summer and starts in September as a first year associate in the Miami office of a national law firm. It going to get real with tons of hours and pressure to perform.

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For those with GPAs in the 3.9-4.0 range, it is possible that they earned some A+ grades in there, if their college has A+ grades. Would it be an advantage for law school admissions to attend a college that has A+ grades, since LSAC GPA recalculation uses 4.33 for A+ (even if the college uses 4.0 = A+ for its own GPA calculation)?

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At some point, gaming the system has diminishing returns.

How in heck does a 17 year old who is choosing a college know that they really and truly are going to end up applying to law school? The kid who loves learning about criminal justice ends up getting a Master’s in Public Policy focused on alternative sentencing outcomes. The kid who is passionate about electoral politics majors in math and goes to work for a polling company. The kid who was a debate champ in HS who everyone said “You’ll be a great lawyer- nobody argues like you” ends up majoring in environmental science and works for the World Bank negotiating carbon offset contracts.

Should a HS kid pick a college based on where they can get the highest GPA? I’d vote no. What a waste of an education…

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Actually our D24 is very interested in law school and has a good feel for what law careers are all about.

We have 4 lawyers in the family ranging from in-house counsel, senior partner at Big NYC law, another senior NYC partner, and non practicing lawyer in financial services. Also has a cousin who went to a top undergraduate, working in NYC, about to apply to law school.

None of her grandparents are lawyers but it just happened that way. And we have never encouraged a career in law because of the crazy work hours but she’ll find her own path and she does have the skill set for law school and beyond.

In this year’s college admissions process, one of the biggest benefits of the safety school is she would start off with 30 hours of A’s (not credit) because of dual enrollment which would be a huge advantage if she decides to go to a T14 school. She’s also a really good test taker (didnt miss a single question on the SAT reading comp), logical reasoning and writer so all that adds up. Probably do really well on the LSAT.

Who knows, maybe she’ll deviate and go into something completely different but she’s definitely interested in law as a possibility.

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Wouldn’t all college courses and grades count for law school applications and GPA recalculation, regardless of the transfer credit policy for the undergraduate college with respect to dual enrollment courses taken while in high school?

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We had never heard of dual enrollment before but the way it was explained to us, the grades are on her college transcript for that particular university (our state flagship) with a corresponding class and grade, as though she took the class in college. She doesnt get the grade if she goes somewhere else. That’s the way we understand it.

Im not sure if that’s your question.

I think it’s techincially, concurrent enrollment. Not sure if that’s the same thing or it’s incorrectly referred to as dual enrollment.

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The 30 credits of A grades from dual enrollment will count toward law school application GPA regardless of what college she attends.

However, they will count toward her GPA at the college for the college’s purposes only if she attends that same college.

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I think all or most schools push salary. It’s just a strong metric - or one that most judge a school by - even though they place in different locales.

What I like about UF vs other schools is - pick your ranking and UF is there near the top. We see some schools high in USNWR but not Wall Street Journal or Wallet Hub or others.

But UF - there may still be people that say UNC or UT or Wisc or W&M is above / but no matter the study UF seems to flourish.

Many other top USNWR schools can’t say the same.

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