Lazy? Disorganized? Just doesn't care?

Parents Forum
1

<p>All of the above.</p>

<p>Am venting; don't mind me.....</p>

<p>Sometimes it rankles, knowing my S has so much potential, but little desire to work. He could easily be getting straight As, if he'd only consistently do and/or turn in his homework, and review just a little for tests. This morning, he was heading out the door and told me he was "stressed," as he had a bunch of quarter-final tests yesterday, and has more today. Really?! Yet the only homework he had -- he does write his assignments down every day -- was math, and that was the ONLY book he cracked last night, and it was only to do the assignment, not to study.</p>

<p>The night before, he did all the homework he had, including a weekly assignment for his health class, and then, once again, didn't turn in the health homework! He has a C in the class. Does great on the tests, but homework counts, so ... a C. And he certainly didn't study for any tests.</p>

<p>Math... he will be getting a C this quarter, after two quarters of Bs. He's one of the few freshmen in the class. He doesn't study, and often, doesn't hand in his homework even when he's done it. Test scores reflect his lack of study.</p>

<p>He could bring up history and science just a little for As. Has he tried to do so? No.</p>

<p>English, a B. That's okay, so long as it doesn't go lower. It might... he's barely in the B range. He's been down to a D and close to an A, so I'm glad that at least, this is still in the B range.</p>

<p>Latin and engineering, he's okay. Still lazy about the work, but pulling As.</p>

<p>He's got a great mind. He tests really well. He has such potential!</p>

<p>It's his life; these are his grades. They could be so much better.</p>

2

<p>I can truly empathize with you. My D is exactly the same way. When she was a Freshman, we were called into the school because they were truly amazed at the levels she was hitting in standardized tests. Basically, they were looking at college level in a variety of subjects. We went and had her tested by another group and same results. The problem is the same, she does not do her homework or, many times, she does it and then does not turn it in. She is on the brink of C/D's in several classes. When we try to find out why from her, typical response is "school is boring and "I don't care". If she would just spend 10% more energy in her class/homework, this girl would be pulling straight A's. Luckily, she is only a sophomore and we pray that she will get it soon. Until then, whats a parent to do?</p>

3

<p>Fast forward three years and you have my life with my daughter. No matter what I did, it never improved from where you are now. The grades stayed mediocre. She never joined a club. If she got to school on time today, it will be the first day this week. I officially give up. She did get accepted to one of our state u's, and she is quite happy with that. It is considered a mid-tier school by our state standards, but one never mentioned on cc. Based on her ACT score they originally assumed she would qualify for a nice scholarship and the honors program. Of course, her GPA keeps her from qualifying for such things. I keep telling myself that if she is happy, then I should be too. But I can't help wondering what might have been if she had just applied herself.</p>

4

<p>Both sons were like that in high school: extremely high stat kids (98, 99th percentile on SAT) with averages below 3.0 due to disorganization and laziness.</p>

<p>I made the mistake of sending older S straight to college, and he flunked out due to continuing the same behavior as in h.s. Was on virtually full merit aid due to high scores, extremely impressive academic-related EC. Because since he said he wanted to go straight to college after high school, I stood over him to make sure he got apps in early to colleges that interested him.</p>

<p>Learned my lesson. While I took younger S to see colleges, and made sure he knew how to apply, I left doing the applications to him, and he managed to procrastinate and miss deadlines. However, he quickly was able to get himself an Americorps volunteer position (He loved to volunteer, and also had due to his extensive volunteering developed a close relationships with our local volunteer center). He lived at home (wanted to live in an apartment, but he was too thrifty to pay for one), paid rent (H and my way of making sure that S understood how little he was making) and he was totally in charge of making sure he got to work, etc.</p>

<p>On his own and with his own money, he applied to 2 colleges, and got merit aid to the one that he favored. Getting the merit aid required an interview at the college and an extra essay. We left in his hands the responsibility of getting there and providing the essay.</p>

<p>Due to his horrible senior year grades (He got such bad senioritis second semester that we didn't know until a week before graduation whether he'd graduate. He spent that week completing long overdue homework), H and I told S that we wouldn't pay for college until he had completed a year of college coursework with at least a 3.0 average.</p>

<p>So... S also had to take out major loans to go to his college of choice.</p>

<p>Result: S had a 3.66 average fall semester, has continued to be very active -- including in leadership positions in ECs related to his interests, and now is working 10 hours a week, too while apparently doing a nice job of balancing his schedule. He seems to have avoided all of the silliness that often gets freshmen off track (including his avoiding the kind of partying that caused me to get on academic probation my freshmen year).</p>

<p>H and I don't fret over his grades -- we leave those in S's hands since he knows what he'll need to do for us to help fund his college education.</p>

5

<p>Trying to make you all feel better . . .</p>

<p>You could be describing me. I was a terrible student in high school. NEVER did any homework (I am not exaggerating), never studied, didn't care at all. I managed to get Bs and Cs by simply showing up, listening, and spitting back what I heard on exams. Did get tripped up by living in New York and having to take Regents Exams. Failed a couple of those.</p>

<p>Managed to get into a mediocre college where I proceeded to do exactly what I had in high school. Flunked out after the first year. (Note: my mother had wanted me to postpone college until I really wanted to go but I wouldn't hear of it. All my friends were going to college and so would I!)</p>

<p>Got a series of horrible, low-paying jobs. After 3 years of that, I was ready to go back to college. I WANTED to go back to college. Not counting the Fs I earned the first time, I ended up with a 3.8. Went to law school. Got a Ph.D. Am VERY happy in academia.</p>

<p>Moral of the story . . . like weight loss (something else I know something about!!) you can't make someone else do it. They have to WANT to do it. Some kids are are "born" wanting to learn. Others it takes far longer. For me, having crappy jobs for low pay opened my eyes. (I think simply growing up helped as well.)</p>

<p>I work with academically-talented kids, some of whom are unmotivated, immature, not ready for college. I often counsel them to step-out for as long as it takes to WANT to be in college. And I tell their worried parents my story. It makes them see there is hope. (They just need to be patient, which I know, is hard.)</p>

<p>So be patient . . . and get your kids crappy jobs!!!</p>

6

<p>We're going through this with my sophomore, too. She wants to do what interests her and can't be bothered with the nonsense. Her English teacher is having them listen to a tape of Macbeth rather than reading it and my daughter is foaming at the mouth over this. I can imagine being called to school when ZS says something nasty or gets angry in class. She pulled a 98 average in her classes last semester till the last week, then she had other things to do, missed a bunch of homework and got penalized mightily by the teachers. Ended up losing almost 10 points. I was incensed and thought that she would have gotten better grades if she had just blown off the last week of the semester. She was selected to attend the Barnard young writer's conference on Saturday, so I'm hoping that it will inspire her to put high school behind her by and be able to move on to a wonderful college, but of course I'm deluding myself that she will have an epiphany and work harder. So I sympathize with all of you.</p>

<p>By the way, Owlice, I always read your name as Ow lice<br>
I have no idea why.</p>

7

<p>"Got a series of horrible, low-paying jobs. After 3 years of that, I was ready to go back to college. I WANTED to go back to college. Not counting the Fs I earned the first time, I ended up with a 3.8. Went to law school. Got a Ph.D. Am VERY happy in academia."</p>

<p>I have friends who are college professors -- including a business prof who is in high demand as a consultant, and another prof friend who is an award-winning author and directs his church's youth program -- who both had young adulthoods like the above. </p>

<p>All such stories give me hope for S, 24, who is a brilliant, college flunk-out who currently is supporting himself while working a very easy job that pays just above poverty level while he tries to write the great American novel. He reads the Great Books for fun, and claims that college can't teach him anything. Doesn't understand that college could help him get a decent job -- and he also could learn some things!</p>

8

<p>It is very hard to sort out what is a particular student's personality, what is a need for developmental growth, and what is a situation where there is some form of ADD, a learning difference or depression that contributes to disorganization. There is a lot of buzz now about "executive function" problems-evidenced by a difficulty setting priorities, assessing how much time to devote to what, organizing assignments, juggling complicated schedules, etc. One can be extremely bright and have these challenges. In fact, they sometimes only become pronounced in high school if a bright kid has been compensating for them in lower grades, but fails to keep track of everything with the increased demands as they get older. As others have suggested, these time management and setting priorities problems are often revealed in greater depth with the decreased structure of college. In some situations, there is merit in assessing what is in a student's way. Focusing during a prescribed test situation doesn't parallel well with daily academic demands. It's important to consider both in determining what is happening for a kid. Not everyone is meant to be a "do or die" high intensity person, but sometimes parents have a hunch that something is in their child's way, and it's not always attitude. No harm in gathering more information if you have that concern. There are lots of ways to develop those skills, even if something makes it harder-and high school is a better place to identify problems and try to develop ways to handle them than college usually is.</p>

9

<p>LOL! I second the crappy jobs.</p>

<p>Older D was a slacker in high school. Her motto seemed to be B's are good enough and a C is no reason to worry. She missed a bunch of college ap deadlines and turned down a WICHE scholarship because she couldn't be bothered to make up one class (foreign language) over the summer. She went to college, got C's as freshman. She didn't go to class, didn't turn in projects, dropped required classes. I didn't have time to micromanage her--my Dh was fighting cancer and his oncologist had already recommended hospice. </p>

<p>Well, H survived the cancer, and D came home to attend local state U and live at home. Her school performance at state U was about the same and we argued alot. At the end of sophomore year, her dad was killed in an accident--and life changed dramatically. I explained the financial facts of life to D. If she wanted spending money, car and place to live that wasn't in my house, she had to earn it. She worked as a waitress at very nice tourist restaurant and was making pretty good money. But the work is hard and there are no benefits. After seeing how much her Dad's cancer treatment cost (around $750,000) and how tough it is to earn a living--she worked with several single moms w/ kids-- D's attitude got adjusted. She told me her goal in life was now to get her degree and find a job "with benies".</p>

<p>Flash forward 2 years: D is the top physics student at the U this year, was hired by the Uni as a TA last fall, was commended as one of 3 outstanding TAs in the college and is waiting to hear on grad school (Medical physics/biophysics)--two schools have already telegraphed their interest and she will likely have several options to choose from. (As a science PhD candidate, she will be fully funded too...) She's working on finishing her pre-reqs for Med school and is looking at a joint MD-PhD down the road.</p>

<p>I know that not all stories have happy endings (and I still have days when I worry about D), but I think that kids need to feel (and be) responsible for their own success or failure. D needed to learn first hand the costs and benefits of her choices.</p>

<p>And while another poster suggest that learning styles/disabilities may come into it--that's true, but no excuse. D is both ADD and LD (auditory processing). No amount remediation is going to change that-- she has to live with it for the rest of her life and needs to develop coping skills to manage.</p>

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<p>S1 was tested when he hit the brick wall in 8th grade and could not stay organized enough to pass his classes. He tested way high and teachers were mad at his low performance. Had full complement of educational testing done privately and found he was above 95 percentile on almost everything but clerical functions - where he was 30 percentile! this disparity led to all kinds of issues from writing homework down to keeping track of it to planning projects. The tester made some suggestions and we hired an LD trained tutor for his HS years. By senior year he was managing on his own, went on to a major university and graduated with honors. </p>

<p>The school was not ready to pay for all the testing since his standardized testing was so high. We knew he was in trouble and did it ourselves. Not always the answer, but if it is making your S miserable, it is worth checking. The disparity of what tests told him and teachers said, vs his experience was making our S depressed and angry. It was worth pursuing.</p>

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<p>Yours isn't an uncommon problem. It's hard to know if its merely immaturity or something like ADD. Testing might be in order if only to rule it out. Honestly there's not too much you can do. I had a friend whose son even did the homework he just didn't bother to hand it in. Perfect SAT scores, low B average. Didn't do much better the first year in college - he took some time off and is back in college now. He's doing better, but basically he's still happier out in the real world than he is in school.</p>

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<p>Wow! WayOutWestMom - I am sorry to hear about losing your husband. Other posters - glad to hear that after crappy jobs, wake up calls you or your S/D did wake up and do well. My S totally frustrates me as he is an organizational nightmare - his room could be considered a fire and health hazard! He tries doing homework while the teacher talks since be believes once he leaves school it's his time. Doesn't do work he feels is "busy work". I try to explain in "the real world" you do "busy work" all day long! He is in 10th grade and takes all honors classes and some AP. He always does well on his tests/finals - which I'm not sure how he does since he doesn't do the work. In physics, he got 100 on the final but a B in the course because he didn't do the work and felt many of the labs were "beneath" him. He has big dreams of attending top colleges and after taking his PSAT's and scoring in the 99th percentile he is getting bombarded with mail from very selective schools. I tell him they will look at grades as well. I wish HS's could do more to motivate kids like this. Obviously if your kid can get a 100 on final and do little work in the class leading up to it - something is wrong.</p>

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<p>owlice, thanks for posting -- this board is so full of stories of motivated, high achieving kids that I think we all get a distorted view of the daily life and priorities of many teenagers.</p>

<p>My d fits the profile you and many others have described -- schoolwork is simply not her top priority, and if there is any way to get her to see things differently, I haven't found it yet.</p>

<p>D met with her HS counselor yesterday who assured her that her grades were "fine," despite several very poor exam results that raise big flags for her parents -- this is so frustrating for me as that is just what my d wants to hear, that there is no need to spend any more time on annoying math and chemistry.</p>

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<p>owlice -- what are you doing in my house with my son ?!?!?</p>

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<p>zoosermom, you're not the first to read my name that way. Think snowy owls instead!</p>

<p>WOWM, I'm so sorry about your H. :( And good for your D turning herself around!</p>

<p>fendrock, you're welcome. My S is "high achieving" if one looks at his SATs (2180 as an 8th grader), but his schoolwork.... eh! He's right there with your D -- it's not his top priority. Sounds a lot like atg4ever's D, too, and... well, all the other Tales of the Underwhatevers here.</p>

<p>Executive functioning disorder has been written into his IEP. He hasn't had a lot of experience with homework, just last year and this, and last year, he didn't have it regularly. He hasn't had years of practice in dealing with paperwork, homework, projects. Am I making excuses for him here? I don't know.</p>

<p>His dad's told him he has to have at least a B in all classes. (Obviously if the kid were working really hard in a class and got lower than a B, that would be okay, but none of this hardly working and getting Cs stuff.) I've told S that his college options will be much much better if he maintains at least a 3.5 average. What one DOES is more important than what one CAN do but doesn't.</p>

<p>He's not unhappy about his grades. He often will do homework but not pass it in. He'd rather do other things, sometimes any other thing, than homework. Sometimes he does his homework on the schoolbus.... going to school, the day that it's due.</p>

<p>Homework is his deal; he has ownership of it. How much do I push? None? Some? Daily application of cattle prod? Do I give him tips on how to study? He got a 60% on his last vocabulary test in Latin; he is now far enough along in the subject that, yes, he has to put forth a little effort.</p>

<p>For his previous vocab. test, I handed him his flashcards (his teacher makes the kids make them; one of their assignments) one night right after dinner, while we were still at the table, and had him quiz his stepdad and me. If H or I got the meaning of the Latin word correct (neither one of us took Latin, BTW), we got an M&M. If we didn't, S got an M&M. Predictably, he did better on that vocab. test than on his most recent one.</p>

<p>Wow... quite a vent. Sorry! It's been building up for a while!!</p>

<p>Edit: lol, katliamom!</p>

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<p>You have every right to vent... it's healthy too!</p>

<p>I've been coaching kids for about four years in basketball, baseball and softball. I've read a few books, and tried to hone my skills. As a parent, I feel uncertain much more often than in coaching other kids! I have learned something in coaching sports that may help.</p>

<p>Kids need three things to excel in sports (and life I think, which is why I'm posting this)</p>

<ul>
<li>natural ability (more phyical in sport, more mental in school)</li>
<li>enjoyment </li>
<li>emotional discipline</li>
</ul>

<p>Each of these is about equally important. All three legs of the stool have to be strong to hold the weight of competitive sport, or competive academics.</p>

<p>When people talk about a child who test well, to me that's just like somebody who is very tall and coordinated, and assuming they must be great at basketball or volleyball. (i.e. they test well).</p>

<p>But if they don't actually enjoy basketball, is there anything wrong with that? Not at all. The same with a high tester who doesn't enjoy school.</p>

<p>Let's say the high tester or tall & coordinated person actually enjoys school/basketball. Do they have the emotional discipline to practice and focus over time? If not, they won't compete at the upper levels of school or sport.</p>

<p>I don't know how to teach any of the three legs of the stool. All I can do is encourage, provide structure, and help with technique. I cannot instill desire, natural ability, or emotional discipline.</p>

<p>I can say this -- some kids need more discipline and structure than others. That's why for decades parents who have run out of answers consider military school or boarding school. </p>

<p>In our home, we make it very clear that we expect straight A's. If mid-term results are Bs and Cs, we start intervening regarding privileges, money and other things they take for granted (like TV and internet use). So far this has been enough external structure and pressure to take them into 7th and 9th grades with all options still open to them.</p>

<p>I wish I knew what advice to give you and your son.... I can only suggest additional structure, or a change of environment educationally.</p>

17

<p>Owlice--I was going to respond to your earlier post about your schedule for your son's academics over the next few years (it sounded a lot like my plans for my high-test-scoring, high IQ son when he was that age). </p>

<p>I didn't want to butt in w/unasked-for advice, but now that you've posted more -- it <em>really</em> sounds exactly like my son then.</p>

<p>I spent a few years pushing him to study, getting on his case, talking about his 'potential' (perfect PSAT scores, SSAT scores, math & science awards in elem & middle school). It got nowhere fast. He did even less & less work & acted more & more bored w/it all.</p>

<p>He's finally turned around in 11th grade (straight As) & a few factors made the difference. I stepped back a bit & let him chose his courses (he hopped off the 'straight honors' track in a few) & started <em>supporting</em> him instead of asking why he hadn't done x, y, z (I'm not saying you are not supportive). </p>

<p>I posted some inspiring quotations around the house about effort being the key to success instead of genius. :-) I focused on his effort & the <em>substance</em> of his classes (we got into discussions about the plays he was reading in honors Eng....not just whether he did the requisite homework). </p>

<p>That (plus maturity) seemed to help.</p>

<p>I think it's super important for moms of boys entering teenhood to reformulate their approach. A lot more asking ("What do you think about doing...?") rather than telling ("You should do..."). Their burgeoning male ego responds a lot better to that. </p>

<p>Wish I knew some of this before. It's easy to get excited about a kid who's got tons of skills/abilities (especially when you see how high the stakes/potential for success can be) but it's important to step back & give them a lot more autonomy, now.</p>

<p>For what it's worth...hope something in here helps. :-)</p>

18

<p>Wow these stories bring back memories for me. When my S was in 1st grade he tested very high on standardized testing but was labeled an underachiever because he was barely passing in class. In second grade he announced that homework was stupid and he wouldn't do it. His reasonging? I already know the stuff so why do I have to do it over and over? Pretty good reasoning for a 2nd grader. As much as we tried to make him fit the mold of the model student, he just continued on his own path. Thankfully he did make it through high school mostly because he scored well on any kind of test but he also flunked out of classes that he would ace all the tests but not turn in any homework. I always felt it was the "system" that failed my child. Did he know as much at the top achievers? Absolutely! But because he didn't fit the mold and follow the "system," on paper he didn't look good. What I want to say is that bright kids often don't fit the standard mold. I know my son would have thrived in some of the magnet or hybrid schools they have now but we live in rural midwest and the option was not there. So, yep, my bright son is doing very well for himself now, having done it in his own way and own time and that is all a parent can ask for. Sorry for the long post. Guess I've had this bottled up awhile.</p>

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<p>Thanks, all; very helpful, both the advice and knowing that my S isn't the only one!!!</p>

<p>DunninLA,</p>

<p>
[quote]
When people talk about a child who test well, to me that's just like somebody who is very tall and coordinated, and assuming they must be great at basketball or volleyball. (i.e. they test well).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This made me laugh, because I know from experience that just being tall, never mind coordination or lack thereof, is enough for people to assume basketball as an activity! An excellent analogy, and thanks for it!</p>

<p>
[quote]
All I can do is encourage, provide structure, and help with technique.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>A good thing to keep in mind; thanks!</p>

<p>Jolynne, thanks for your advice! </p>

<p>I've been phrasing things along the lines of "Have you considered...?" or "If you wanted to, you could probably..." Some, anyway. Well, once, for sure! Maybe... :) </p>

<p>I had some concerns about his schedule for next year; he's in a science and tech magnet (yee-haw!), and the coordinator for the program has strongly recommended a kid schedule one "fun" class each semester. (File under "It's High School; Have Some Fun, Please!") S picked all academic classes, though I reminded him of the coordinator's advice.</p>

<p>Finally dawned on me that, for my kid, it's very likely that AP Comp Sci is his idea of a "fun" class.</p>

<p>rgmom,</p>

<p>
[quote]
What I want to say is that bright kids often don't fit the standard mold. I know my son would have thrived in some of the magnet or hybrid schools

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yeah, S often walks his own path. I'm hoping the magnet program helps. We'll see!</p>

<p>And I hear you on the bottled up thing, too; for "long post," see "owlice." :D</p>

20

<p>Add yet one more very high potential, underachieving son. Great SAT scores in 7th grade and 8th grade. Extremely good performance at CTY - according to teachers there, exceptional even in that group. Mixed grades in middle school, was not admitted to selective local day schools, now doing very badly in local public HS. Most of the descriptions above fit - extremely disorganized, forgets to do homework, or does it and loses it, or does it and forgets to turn it in, but top grades on all tests. Until this year, he's been extremely driven intellectually, and has basically made up for unchallenging school work with self-imposed study in several areas. Now he seems to have lost his motivation. </p>

<p>He has been diagnosed by a therapist he has been seeing for about 2months with ADD (I've left out the "H" deliberately). He says that there are major problems with executive function (planning, carrying out plans, time management, materials management). He recommended "Driven to Distraction" - I read it and recognized my son. He thinks S needs medication, at least for a while, but so far S refuses to try it (he is against taking drugs - usually a good thing, but not in this case - funny, he takes antibiotics and allergy meds without comment, but not this). </p>

<p>It is really hard to watch. This is not a case of lack of interest - unless there has been a complete personality change in one year.</p>