Learning styles?

Parents Forum
1

<p>Hi, I have not put a great deal of thought into this subject up until now, just observations, but with my older D I am finding she will need help and I'm not sure where to begin.</p>

<p>Obviously, I may need to have her evaluated, but I figured I'd check with CC parents and maybe get an overview of what I may be dealing with.</p>

<p>A little long, sorry..</p>

<p>D is in middle school. She was an early reader, and is highly creative. Emotional, mercurial, and prone to magical thinking. She picks up facts very quickly, not a photographic memory, but very impressive.</p>

<p>Where she is running into problems now is that she is asked to reason out things more, to use these facts and and make sound arguments, conjectures, and conclusions based on their readings and class discussions. And she is having more and more trouble with this as the complexity of the subject matter increases. This would mostly be in things like social studies and literature. She does well in math; in science she does well with facts but is having trouble writing up the labs (making logical conclusions).</p>

<p>I am not sure where to begin. It seems I am being asked to teach her how to think, and I don't even know how to begin doing that. She has always had a unique way of thinking and viewing the world - her quirkiness is just the way she is. We've always treasured her for these traits that we sometimes don't understand, but make our family experience that much more enriched. But it seems we need to work with her to be more like the rest of the family - logical and analytical. She needs to do better in things other than creative writing and math.</p>

<p>The teachers want us to go over her homework with her and reason out with her any of her answers that are not answering what is being asked. So we will have to read everything she is reading and will have to talk her through what is being asked and get her to focus on the key concepts. She tends to take an ancillary fact and make all her conclusions based on that.</p>

<p>This sounds very tiring and will no doubt be frustrating to both of us. I was thinking of having her outline what she reads so that she captures the key concepts and that will give her a framework for thinking out her answers.</p>

<p>Any suggestions, or 'been there/done that' help would be appreciated.</p>

2

<p>The traits you describe sound a lot like a nonverbal learning disorder. I am not an expert on this although my S has Asperger’s and the two disorders share some characteristics. This might at least be a good starting point to get some ideas for your D; there is a lot of information available both on the web and published materials. You know your D best but this could be something you may wish to discuss with specialists as you go through future evaluations. The following is a summary of NLD characteristics:</p>

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<p>[NLD</a> Characteristics](<a href=“Web Page Under Construction”>Web Page Under Construction)</p>

<p>This site and others like it may be able to provide some suggestions for helping your D; for instance this is an article from the same site that specifically relates to developing thinking skills and provides some ideas for both younger and older children:</p>

<p>[Thinking</a> Skills](<a href=“Web Page Under Construction”>Web Page Under Construction)</p>

3

<p>Thanks for the info scansmom! And to others for their PM’s. My daughter has many of these characteristics, so I think this is a likely place to start.</p>

<p>What I think of as her ‘magical thinking’ is probably more an inability to tell the difference between fact and opinion.</p>

<p>The links give some useful advice on how to help her as a parent. Probably things I should have started years ago, but I did not see what I saw as personality traits as a possible learning disability.</p>

4

<p>We had learning issues with our son in about the 4th/5th grades. The advice given to us was to make a formal request to his school to have him tested for a learning disability. The formal request was just a letter to the principal. The school had to respond to it and ended up testing him (as we had investigated and found out what the CA laws were). </p>

<p>My son was found to have a learning style issue. With the test results we were able to work with him regarding this and he improved his grades a lot. He ended up in the gifted program for math and science and will gradute next June with a BS in mechanical engineering from Cal Poly SLO. He still finds writing difficult and just needs to budget extra time whenever he has a writing assignment.</p>

<p>So, my advice is to ask your school system to have him tested for a learning disability. You may want to investigate, first, what the rules are in your state/area regarding how the school may or may not respond to this request.</p>

5

<p>Your daughter may benefit from a neuropsych evaluation. They will do a number of tests as well as review parents and students medical history, pregnancy, birth, etc. It was the single most informative thing we have ever done to help us understand and help our son. We were much more able to tease out what was a symptom and what was part of his wonderful quirky personality. All of a sudden things were not so murky, gray, confusing. We knew parts of the brain that were being affected, learning style (as you mentioned), etc., so we could better support him. It also turned out to be the key to getting services at school. It was the only test he couldn’t ‘game’.</p>

<p>Note: I crossed posts with HPuck35. While our state offers testing for services we had to put up a significant fuss to get a child study. From there the tests were inconclusive as they never showed a 20pt discrepancy between ability and performance. If your student is gifted and can compensate…too bad. The point is, as seen above, the older they get the harder it is for them to compensate. Forth/fifth grade is a common breaking point because all classwork makes a transition to a full written format. If they have been hiding a written language disability until this point, now you will see it. For us, private testing was the only answer, and fully covered by insurance that is normally pretty lousy. Absolutely start with the school, but that would not be my only course of action.</p>

6

<p>I should have stated that, as blueiguana pointed out, private testing may also be required. Our son also had some private testing in 4/5 grade timeframe and again while in college. The testing done at school did help us to identify what specific testing was required when we went to the private doctor. Our insurance wasn’t as generious and we paid for it (it wasn’t that expensive). So, having the school testing done was helpfull.</p>

7

<p>martina, with very bright kids, learning disabilities/differences often don’t pop out until middle school, when the work starts to stress their weaknesses much more. Having been through this, I’d definitely not only work with the school in testing, but also investigate private testing. Put in a request right away, especially for the issues you (and the teachers) see. By law the school has to get testing done within a certain timeframe (depends on the state), but lots of school districts drag their feet. With private testing, you might also consider using a psych clinic at a local university, where PhD students do the testing. Depends on what the costs are in your area, what’s available and what your insurance will do.</p>

<p>Getting this taken care of now is FAR easier than when you have a sullen uncooperative 16 year old who’s gotten jaded to ‘failure.’ There’s a great site called miller mom that has loads of useful info. What you have described is a huge red flag. And what the teachers are asking you to do seems awfully unreasonable.</p>

8

<p>I am not sure that we will get much help through her school. Because she was an early reader and seeingly more advanced for her age, we started her in a Catholic school in kindergarten because they had a full day program. And she ended up staying.</p>

<p>I really don’t want to move her now. It is a nurturing environment and she has good friends there. Because she is very naive, I do not want to move her into a public middle school, I don’t think she could cope with the social aspects.</p>

<p>But the teaching methods at her school are not well suited to the issues that are surfacing now.</p>

9

<p>Our daughter had more than a 20 point difference between verbal and performance, was found by public school testing to be a slow processor and had many other problems, in 3rd grade, but was consistently denied services because she did well enough in class (probably because we recognized that she needed interaction in order to learn, and provided that at home).</p>

<p>We paid privately last year when she was 17, and are going to do more testing next month. Things definitely get harder as the years go by. And for us, it is a question whether our daughter can do college, so we really need some answers now. It is well worth it to spend the money if you have it, because it will need to be done at some point, and the earlier the better. Your daughter may be relieved by information gleaned.</p>

<p>I use the word “quirky” in my mind all the time about our daughter. With mostly good connotations. I am still not sure how much we would want to change the child to fit a path, like school, or how much the path she chooses should accommodate/reflect her true self.</p>

<p>I will PM you.</p>

10

<p>martina99</p>

<p>In some states, the legal mandate requiring testing and provision of services through the public school extends to private ones as well. In other words, you might be able to have your daughter screened by the public school staff, and have services required by her IEP provided by them as well even though she is not in a public school. But, you need to find out what the process is in the state where you live. It may even vary by school district.</p>

<p>Some catholic schools are very good at dealing with students with IEPs, and have their own resource staff available. Others aren’t as good. You need to find out what is possible at your daughter’s school.</p>

<p>Wishing your family all the best!</p>

11

<p>You may need to get both the public school to screen your daughter AND pay for a private screening (maybe insurance might cover that?) </p>

<p>I believe that even if your child does not attend the local public school they still have to provide services like screenings. If you live in the district, your public school cannot disown you, even if you send your kid to Catholic school. They have to provide services - because if you pulled your D out of her Catholic school tomorrow, the public school would have to accept her. The public schools have the specialists and resources to provide screenings, but if a disability is found they also have to pay for the required education to fix it - which gives the school screeners a dis-incentive to find an LD that needs treatment. That’s why I think you also need to pay for a private screening. (I say all this as an employee of the public schools.)</p>

<p>Just got through reading the evaluation of my nephew’s LD (my MIL sent it to us, I have no idea why). He had an obvious LD in that he couldn’t read. The public school evaluated him in 2nd grade and recommended putting him in a sub-separate classroom. My MIL, who had been a school nurse, insisted on a private testing/screening (and paid for it). They diagnosed a complex, multi-issue LD and recommended placement in a private school that handled that specific LD family. The school district said it wasn’t necessary and refused to pay for it. So my SIL & her H, and her parents, are paying for him to attend this private school. He’s been there for 3 years and the improvement has been extraordinary. </p>

<p>I agree that 4th grade is the time when many higher-level thinking issues come to light. I remember that for both of my kids, the requirements of 4th/5th grade were a sea change from previous years, and neither of my kids had an LD. I’ve heard teachers say that K-3 is about learning to read, and grades 4+ are about reading to learn. If your daughter has a higher-level functioning issue, now is when it will show up.</p>

<p>(edit: cross posted with HappyMom)</p>

12

<p>Yes, D is now in 6th grade and the problems started showing up last year. At that point I thought it was just her being disorganized, but now I realize it is more than that.</p>

<p>I am wondering what is done for students with these types of issues. Like I said earlier I am hesitant to change schools, but maybe some kind of supplemental instruction would be helpful.</p>

<p>There is only so much I can do for her as a parent and a non teacher other than seek resources that can help her.</p>

13

<p>My D is diagnosed with NVLD-- though very little of what’s above fits her, and your D sounds very different. It’s a big catch-all diagnosis based on wide difference between Verbal and Non-verbal WISC scorse. I think it’s really, really important to get a neuropsych evaluation-- very much worth paying for one. It’s amazing how much a parent and teachers can help once they see what works and what doesn’t. Once you know what she can’t grasp (in D’s case that is graphs, charts, maps, geometry, and spatial aspects of other subjects), you can help her understand the info in different ways. And that is a self-confidence boost right there.</p>

14

<p>I agree with the other posters about getting an evaluation. But, I would also ask you these questions: could your daughter be “overplaced” in school? How old is she compared to her peers? Are the expectations of the school developmentally realistic? Are other children having this difficulty also?
And, how physically developed is your daughter?
I am only asking this because cognitive psychologists have long recognized the transition that occurs from concrete operations to formal operations, at around the age of 12 or 13 or so. Until kids make this transition, some of the abstract reasoning just does not occur. And, it may be that a certain amount of estrogen or testosterone is needed to allow the brain to operate in an abstract manner.
Yes, you can stimulate her reasoning ability by constantly asking her why she thinks certain things occur and so forth. But, my question is…could this just be developmental?</p>

15

<p>I don’t want to steal a thread, but what if the child refuses to get assessment? We as parents see a problem, but the grades are not failing (yet), so the school doesn’t care, and the teachers just label your child “lazy”?</p>

16

<p>@sunnsea, A thought is to withdraw parental support that most certainly is keeping your student afloat. It hurts to see them sink, but sometimes it is necessary. My son was a high achiever that wasn’t showing low enough marks for a child study. We quit packing the backpack, preforming executive function duties, etc. and let him tank for a solid month before the school administration was on board. In the meantime we sought outside assessment, knowing we were going to face and uphill battle. Our student was not protesting, however I think the cold reality of failing when parents are not helping can be a catalyst.</p>

17

<p>I see how effective it would be, BI. But I worry we may not be able to stick it out, especially now that it’s so close to the end of the semester and they go on a transcript! We do have a Dr appt but it’s not soon enough for us.</p>

18

<p>martina99 - There are a number of things that can be done to help students according to their needs. If they are found to have difficulty with listening to a lecture and taking notes at the same time, notes can be provided so the student can pay attention and absorb the information (written language disorder). In this case keyboarding can help as it is a different neurological pathway for the student than handwriting. The school will often allow (if not provide) a laptop. Cutting the extreme amount of busy work out of homework can help (completing 20 math equations to show mastery, not 50). Helping to create an organized system that works for your student (color coding every subject, using post it tabs to mark any paper that needs to be turned in), allowing homework to be scanned and emailed in for credit so it doesn’t get lost. Providing tests in a verbal as opposed to a written format. Having a second set of textbooks at home.</p>

<p>These are just a few of the things that can be written into an IEP to assist your daughter according to her individual needs. I’m sure others could provide an endless list of other examples. Having a private evaluation puts you in the position to know what to ask for as opposed to simply accepting what the school offers. They may be very generous. They may not. If they miss something in their evaluation, they may not present something that could help, however if you suggest it they may not be opposed. This is truly a case where knowledge is power…for your daughter’s education.</p>

<p>Keep asking questions! Best of luck.</p>

19

<p>@sunnsea - Is your student in hs? If so, then I agree it is a different situation when grades are being presented to universities. I guess ultimately you have to consider, how will your student function in college without your support? If you think they will fail, better they skin their knees now. I would say this is only if they are averse to help and testing. Ultimately you know your student and have to decide what is right. It is very hard.</p>

20

<p>levirm, D is the youngest in her class. This wasn’t a problem when she started kindergarten since her strong skills (reading, memorization, pattern recognition, etc.) were a plus at that point. I would say she is young for her age emotionally, she is very naive as well. She is very tall for her age (taller than me already), so I expect people in some situations treat her or expect her to act older than she is.</p>

<p>The school is rigorous; I would say in many subjects they are a grade level ahead of our mediocre public school. D was fine until last year. The homework seemed to increase exponentially in 5th grade. Last year it I thought it was just organizational issues. Her issues with reasoning abilities became apparent this year.</p>

<p>She has a time consuming EC as well, but I don’t want to make her give that up. </p>

<p>Gwen, my D is terrible with maps and anything requiring her to determine direction. So maybe she will have problems with higher level math. Word problems can be iffy, but no one likes word problems :)</p>

<p>To those who have gotten private evaluations, would that be arranged through her pediatrician?</p>

<p>And as for a child that doesn’t want to be helped, that sounds like my S, who is now in college. He was evaluated, I had him to tutors, and he really didn’t care to want to do well. Until his senior year of high school, and now he is doing much better and wishes he had not pushed away the help we tried to give him earlier. But his were more organizational issues and immaturity, though I recognize some of his traits in the list above. </p>

<p>My D wants to be helped. She has always prided herself on doing well and is at a loss as to what is going wrong for her. It is definitely affecting her self esteem, she is crushed if she gets detention for losing or forgetting assignments.</p>