To respond to another of OP’s points, my kids attended SUNY schools. They were awarded private scholarships through the school, funded by ordinary people. One donor whose scholarship my D received was an alumnus who was childless, so he clearly wasn’t donating in order to get a legacy preference for his own family members. At S17’s school, a scholarship was endowed by a family whose child died in an accident either while a student at the school or soon after graduation so, again, not an issue of trying to get a legacy preference. I am grateful that my children received these monies and, at some point, I hope to be in a financial position to donate to their schools in a directed means (i.e, to make a donation intended to help a student similar to my own child).
As for overall legacy, I know that the SUNY apps asked where the parents attended. H is a SUNY grad but not from a campus where any of my kids even applied. I took it more as checking to see if a kid was a first generation as opposed to legacy, but I suppose it could be both.
I agree with the premise that some full pays are necessary to help fund other kids, but my kids were not candidates for any of the types of schools being discussed here so the issue didn’t impact my admissions thoughts at all. I never believed that my D didn’t get into Geneseo because some other person’s legacy kid did. I knew it was because she didn’t have the stats.
“As strong an academic candidate you can find” normally means a winner of a prestigious national academic competition. If your daughter was one plus had great scores and still wasn’t admitted to any of the top schools, it would be very surprising to me. If she wasn’t, you might not realize how many academically outstanding students there actually are - even without legacy, donors, URM’s and possibly even athletes not all of them would get a place in a top school.
I don’t resent private colleges for representing private interests. It’s a private institution.
I harbor resentment towards public colleges using the same system because our citizenry is too short-sighted, anti-meritocracy and just plain selfish to fund a proper system of education from the nursery through higher and vocational education. I think that’s pretty stupid and mean.
I also believe that private universities should be accountable for their non-profit status.
I’m a member of a sports club that functions as a non-profit. We aren’t allowed to discriminate based on anything like age or relationships when it comes to membership (sports teams can have competitive entrance). That’s part of the law for non-profits, I believe federally. I don’t know what the percentage of legacy spots should be, compared to the number of merit spots, compared to the number of charity spots (e.g. students from poor zip codes w/high potential). Certainly 90/5/5 seems like it should not confer non-profit status on the whole institution. It would be interesting to see what the actual ratios are. (Edit: I’d also be happy to hear that this is already regulated. It would not surprise me.)
We will be full pay and we will give what we can to education.
But I won’t be giving to the alumni foundations except anonymously. I will continue to put my money into meritocratic institutions that provide a fair chance for every student.
Again, everyone has their right to their own private clubs with their own rules. But there is another way, in my opinion–a better way.
Approximately 17% of Harvard’s 2022 class are first generation and 14% are legacy. These are hooks that benefit both of these cohorts but the legacies are more likely full pay.
Basically a rich trustee has a fancy dinner once a semester for a select group of students who are all rich and famous or who have rich and famous parents so they can meet each other and network. The university Advancement Office was sending out the invites and helping with the event (they will no longer be involved in any way). Some of the attendees indicated they got special treatment from other University offices like Res Life because of the dinner.
The article was written by 4 Brown students and I think it’s worth a read whether you think these dinners are a big deal or not.
Some student followup (I know the second article says it is about fossil fuels but it’s about the dinners):
No she wasn’t a Nobel laureate. Not one of the top 5000 or 10000. But in a country with 3.5mm grads. And 1.9mm act test takers. I believe she was remarkably strong on a statistical basis.
Valedictorian of the number 1 “school of choice” in her state . Top 30 usnwr public high school nationally and top three in one of the largest states. 4.0uw. 13 aps with one 4 and 12 5s. 35 act. 1520 sat single sitting. Captain of girls lacrosse team. President of shs. School govt. ,one of two girls on the academic decathlon team. Regional science fair type awards. Beta club. Worked summers at a camp to save money volunteered at same hospital for four straight years. Nmf. Ap scholar. Etc.
To me that’s a strong as it gets in general. But no not an automatic. But she’s a nice if not great wittier. Kind and funny. So seemed pretty great to me and others who are more objective.
What’s a strong as it gets candidate to you? To me it’s top 5 percent nationally. And statistically she is in that camp. Or maybe I am wrong and someone can help me understand
And her profile and legacy at one school didn’t help and it may have been a big help at other places where she got knocked out. Perhaps by a legacy or donor. And it’s ok if I think about the others it helps. That’s all I am saying.
But I started this thread but it’s not “my” thread.
@bearpanther And that’s Brown. Often thought to be a paragon of liberal ethos. I don’t think that article is going to go over well on College Hill. Even if it is a practical idea.
There was another tread about the Brown article @bearpanther. (I think in the Parent Cafe but can’t remember). I hadn’t read the student follow ups though so thanks for those links.
https://www.chicagomaroon.com/article/2019/2/16/billionaire-trustee-hosts-dinner-early-admits-reno/ Wealth and higher ed have often been connected and probably will continue to be for the foreseeable future. Those donors and alums provide funding for buildings, endow professors, establish scholarships, provide internships and job opportunities, networking etc… if their child or children go to that school for 4 years that seems like a small price for the generosity shown to the school which benefits all the students.
@vpa2019 However, despite the obvious elitist feel. — the question is “do these types of events actually serve a larger, beneficial social purpose”.
Namely, to fill the tills for other students to attend who wouldn’t without the financial assistance and for the salaries of top academics and facilities etc.
If you look one story back in the article you post - UChicago also announced potential work study cuts related to federal reductions and minimum wages hikes. Donors and alums can fill that gap perhaps ? It’s all connected and not all nefarious.
@ucbalumnus Good point. Perhaps if we look at the world beyond hyps it matters more. Some schools like Georgetown have remarkably small endowments for their stature.
@privatebanker I agree with your points and I do believe that wealthy donors and alums do fill those gaps. And if my child is fortunate enough to attend Brown I honestly don’t care if they’re invited to an elite get together. The super rich and connected know each other and move in circles together before they reach college. A few dinners isn’t moving the needle much for them.
@privatebanker the other question is do all those events need to serve a larger social purpose? Demonizing wealth isn’t new but calling out wealthy donors and alums seems to be more in vogue these days and if you lose them then the schools as a whole will suffer because finding alternative funding might be challenging.
@vpa2019 Great stat, thanks for whipping that out so quickly. It would be great to see these listed for all colleges (need based concessions, merit admit, legacy). Seems reasonable to reserve 15% of your spaces for private club members–and what a club!
Also I forgot sports scholarships. Those are a very interesting group. Some of them destroy their bodies for a lottery ticket to fame and can’t use the education because they would have been better off educationally in a supportive CC environment. But for many this is the chance of a lifetime.
All in all I still think state schools should provide everyone a chance to success based on a broad set of academic indicators and the system must be build on access to well-funded public schools from age 3 and up. There are countries that do this, and their meritocratic public schools (Ecole Polytechnique, Technical University of Munich come to mind) are outstanding.
the question is “do these types of events actually serve a larger, beneficial social purpose”.
Yes, they do. The gap is created by the failure to create a public space in which all citizens have access to the same opportunities. This must be solved by charity.
Charity is beautiful. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if our government supported a meritocratic educational system so that the generous charity could be spent on something that is not an economic necessity?
Imagine those same donors, instead of sponsoring something that many of our allies provide to all children, were able to allocate their giving on more carbon-neutralizing technology scaling. Imagine that charity going to give deserving students a gap year along the lines of what kids get in the Netherlands.
Giving will always be praiseworthy. That doesn’t mean it’s the most efficient or even effective way to run a society.
“The super rich and connected know each other and move in circles together before they reach college. A few dinners isn’t moving the needle much for them.”
I agree with this, but perpetuating those “elite connections” at an institution that is supposed to be meritocratic once you’re in it is imo an issue - the institution on the other hand should be supporting more inclusivity, not perpetuating exclusivity. Seeing as these don’t do much extra for the already connected rich kids, networking events instead for the URMs and first gens instead - for whom it could move the needle - might be a nice idea…
@SJ2727 I think your point is spot on and I hope the universities do pursue this option. It appeared from the article that Brown’s involvement was some what tangential in that they facilitated the emails and responses but were not responsible for the organization of the underlying event. I think it’s unrealistic to think that the development office would refuse to assist a major donor but to your line of thinking I hope that same dev office would encourage that donor to host events for first gen and URMs as well.
@ucbalumnus I wouldn’t say they are funding a “luxury class experience”. I’ve seen my DD dorms and they aren’t luxurious, nor is the food. You can hear the same gripes on other top colleges threads about food/dorms. Having said that the top privates pay more to their professors (they need to keep and attract top talent). They also use the money for things like funding internships (many top schools have instituted or are instituting this) that you are probably not going to get a colleges with less donor funding. As we all know funding by big donors usually goes to a specific area, sometimes that is FA, sometimes buildings, fellowships, etc. but creating a luxury class at the school…I don’t think so.