<p>Mathmom, it is very likely that your son got in without significant consideration of the legacy factor. Maybe they could just tell how smart he was. ;)</p>
<p>I'd note that a math-oriented "One-sided computer nerd with state medals in Science Olympiad" (your words) is nothing special in the MIT / CalTech applicant pool, so it stands to reason that his math/science focus would pay off more with Harvard.</p>
<p>When I look at the stats book at our high school, it actually looks to me like the legacy admit rate is significantly higher than the non-legacy for some of the competitive schools. </p>
<p>It's tempting to think that "legacy" means "you're in" but all it really does is increase your chances. Thus at Stanford, a few years ago, the "legacy" letter specifically stated that the legacy rate was double that of the overall admit rate (25% versus about 12). But that does still mean that 3 out 4 legacy applicants were being rejected and since the overall admit rate has gone down, I suspect that the legacy admit rate has, too.</p>
<p>I may be wrong, but I have the impression that at most Ivy schools the Admissions Director would be out or have serious explaining to do if there was a significant dip in the percentage of the class taken from legacy applicants.
I'm sure that the echo-boom is impacting legacy applicants as well.</p>
<p>Yes, it did occur to me that Harvard gets fewer computer nerds than MIT and Caltech and probably loses some cross-admits as well. Mathson said a couple of kids were at the open house yesterday trying to decide between MIT and Harvard. (He thought the choice was obvious, but they didn't!) I didn't think Mathson was a shoe-in, based on our school acceptence history and legacy status and other factors I figured he had a 50-50 chance. Pretty good odds for an Ivy.</p>
<p>mathmom:</p>
<p>I also think that mathson's comp sci focus helped him at Harvard. H is actively trying to build its School of Engineering and Applied Science, and comp sci is one of the disciplines that is being expanded. Math majors have been invited to several dinners with comp sci profs who are obviously bent on poaching from the math dept!</p>
<p>Suze:</p>
<p>At HYP, donor status starts at $1million+. Below that, if you are an alum, you're merely an alum.</p>
<p>Some random numbers:</p>
<p>U. of Pennsylvania, Class of 2010:</p>
<p>Legacy Admit Rate: 31%
Overall Admit Rate: 17.7%
ED Admit Rate 29%</p>
<p>Bowdoin, Class of 2010</p>
<p>Legacy Admit Rate 51%
Overall Admit Rate 21.6%
ED Admit Rate 31.1%</p>
<p>Colgate, Class of 2010</p>
<p>Legacy Admit Rate 45.8%
Overall Admit Rate 28.1%
ED Admit Rate 52.2%</p>
<p>Don't have the legacy admit rates broken down by ED/RD. I'm pretty sure Penn says the legacy preference is only in the ED round.</p>
<p>Advantagious,
Regarding Northwestern, Im a current student but my brother did not get in. Hes top 5%, 2200+ SAT with good EC. Another student here, his brother did not get in with a 34 ACT and good academics/EC. I doubt sibling legacy is a factor at NU.</p>
<p>JHS - In my small part of the world, I have seen that legacy to one of the HYP's doesn't mean much. In fact, it helped us to decide to discontinue contributions to that particular alma mater in favor of the schools we attended that aren't as well endowed, after years of small but consistent giving. </p>
<p>A couple years ago I was at an event at the HYP school and chose the largest cinnamon roll from the buffet offering, figuring it was the only thing I'd ever get from that school. When a musical performance group from same recently came to our area, I encouraged youngest to attend, thinking (but not saying): it's not like you'll ever get to a performance on campus. </p>
<p>If people haven't gotten the message that legacy at super competitive colleges is meaningless, they haven't been paying attention. On the other hand, I don't think it's held against students and they have every right to enter the lottery like any other applicant. Keep expectations low and you're less likely to be surprised by disappointment.</p>
<p>I actuallly think it comes pretty close to being held against you in admissions at HYP.</p>
<p>There appears to be an upper limit to legacy admits, and you are therefor in competition not with the broad applicant pool, but instead with a non random subgroup, which has high qualifications. The schools are highly embarassed on the one hand if they have too many, and yet still want to have alumni believe that there is some advantage to them.</p>
<p>The admit rates suggest an advantage, but they aren't meaningful withough data on the pool. I dug long and hard to come up with the quote from Harvard's Fitzsimimons that the legacy admits had SAT's that were within two points of the regular pool. My assertion is that if you can admit 30% of one pool, and still get the same stats that you acheived with admitting only 10% of another pool, then its likely that the 30% pool had higher stats than the others.</p>
<p>From an interview with Yale President Lewin in 2004:</p>
<p>"Y: About 14 percent of last year's entering freshmen were children or grandchildren of alumni of the college, graduate school, or professional schools. The admissions rate for legacies is about 30 percent -- three times the rate for non-legacies.</p>
<p>L: It's important to understand that being a legacy does not guarantee admission to Yale College. But the pool of legacy applicants is substantially stronger than the average of the rest of the pool. The grades and test scores of the legacies we admit are higher than the average of the rest of the admitted class, and the legacies that matriculate achieve higher grades at Yale than non-legacy students with the same high school grades and test scores."</p>
<p>From an interview with Rick Levin, Yale's president, in a 2004 edition of the Yale Alumni Magazine:</p>
<p>Y: About 14 percent of last year's entering freshmen were children or grandchildren of alumni of the college, graduate school, or professional schools. The admissions rate for legacies is about 30 percent -- three times the rate for non-legacies.</p>
<p>L: It's important to understand that being a legacy does not guarantee admission to Yale College. But the pool of legacy applicants is substantially stronger than the average of the rest of the pool. The grades and test scores of the legacies we admit are higher than the average of the rest of the admitted class, and the legacies that matriculate achieve higher grades at Yale than non-legacy students with the same high school grades and test scores.</p>
<p>"Regardless of what the statistics say, I can't believe there is any meaningful legacy preference at the hyper-selective schools any more."</p>
<p>The rate of legacy preference has gone down as the percentage of URM and female alumni has gone up.</p>
<p>Legacy tied to money remains a HUGE hook (though it is less clear what role each plays). As previous CDS numbers I posted indicate, economic diversity generally speaking at these schools continues to fall; at Yale (for example), there is a smaller percentage of students receiving need-based aid today than when William Buckley was there (and the school was, relatively, a LOT cheaper.)</p>
<p>I'm just making conjectures w/ regards to the Northwestern and school thing...I obviously don't have that big of a sample to really prove anything. It certainly could have been that this girl's excellent stats got her accepted at Northwestern where at slightly more competitive schools like Duke, she was only waitlisted. </p>
<p>Not to derail the thread, but if you want to talk faculty child admissions at Northwestern, do I ever have proof for that preference!</p>
<p>My child applied to one of the top universities where he is a legacy. I received a personal letter describing how the policy worked: the applicant has to qualify on his/her own first, then the legacy becomes a plus. The school's admission rate for legacies is double the overall rate. But given the school's selectivity, more than 75% of the legacies are rejected. </p>
<p>All of the legacy admissions from my son's high school, with one exception, were highly qualified applicants. The exception was a mega-donor -- seven figures. </p>
<p>The endowments and annual fundraising amounts are so large at the top schools that they are no longer dependent on individual alumni. </p>
<p>I actually think this year was tougher for students from privileged backgrounds because the top schools were aggressive about seeking low income students.</p>
<p>Advantagious:</p>
<p>Facbrats are a separate category from legacies, since many members of faculties are themselves not graduates of the college where they teach. At some colleges, not only do facbrats get a huge leg up--far more than legacies--, but they also attend at either greatly reduced or no cost. I remember the case, when my H was a graduate student (at Harvard), when his department tried to hire a prof from another, less prestigious private university. The prof was very tempted (higher status, more salary) until he found out that 1. admission for facbrats was not automatic; 2. there was no tuition reduction. Where he was teaching, facbrats who met minimal requirements were admitted and attended free of charge. The prof in question had 10 kids. he turned down Harvard's offer.</p>
<p>I'd love to know more about the low income students attending Yale during Wm. Buckley's time. Were they PLUs ("people like us") that were just down on their luck? It's hard to believe that a run of the mill low income student would have had access to that kind of education. They were probably legacies.</p>
<p>I met a British man, now in his 80s, whose father died when the man was a young boy. Because his father had been a physician, that education was available to him free of charge and so he graduated from medical school, not having the money to pursue other interests. I found that tale (from the horse's mouth) incredible; didn't feel it was polite to question how such a thing worked. Just another definition of 'legacy'.</p>
<p>Marite,
Well, now Harvard is a member of a group of colleges which give faculty discounts to the children of faculty at any school in the group. You pay half price. So, the faculty brats do NOT have to go to the college at which a parent teaches to get a discount. (This ONLY applies to undergrad education. I know that because the father of one of my kid's friends told me that he would have to pay full price for an Ivy law school, but only had to pay half the cost of college.) </p>
<p>BTW, this does NOT guarantee acceptance. In one case, a faculty brat--parent a professor at Columbia--got frozen out at all the schools in the group, and deservedly so. Parent was pretty steamed at having to pay full freight for SUNY.</p>
<p>I know for certain that Harvard faculty kids, at least those in the Faculty of Arts and Sciences do NOT get reduced tuition anywhere including Harvard itself. Members of the faculty get interest free loans, whereas some other institutions give lump sums or portions of tuition. This was true 40 years ago, and it's true today--at least the no free or reduced tuition part.</p>
<p>Edit: Crimson article:
[quote]
Few Perks for Faculty with Kids, Profs Say
Students and resources are big draws, but some say Harvard falls short with parent benefits</p>
<p>STICKER PRICE</p>
<p>While schools including Princeton and Yale subsidize half of the tuition costs for their faculty members’ children—at these schools or another undergraduate institution—Harvard offers no tuition discounts to professors’ progeny.</p>
<p>According to Lisa Martin, chair of the Faculty of Arts and Sciences (FAS) Standing Committee on Women, Harvard’s “tuition assistance” consists of interest free loans to help with education at any institution.
[/quote]
<p>
Oh! Did I miss something?? :confused: Have they removed Penn from the Ivy League and put it in the "Ivy-Type League"??</p>