<p>I've heard that legacy makes a difference if you're out of state (I am). My dad is a UVA alum and has remained active in the alumni association. I'm still a junior, and this isn't really a chance me post, but I have good grades (3.97 unweighted GPA, 4.55 weighted), pretty strong ECs, and am hoping to do well on the SAT as well as SAT IIs. In a case like mine, would legacy give me an extra budge into admission?<br>
I'm really new to this, so any help would be appreciated.
Thanks so much.</p>
<p>I was just wondering if anyone could answer my question about legacy, please? Thanks!</p>
<p>Some more: I am a pretty competitive rower (I've been on varsity three years and will be captain next year), and will possibly look to be recruited by some schools. By the time I graduate, I will have taken 7 AP classes (four by the end of my junior year).</p>
<p>I'm also a legacy. I've heard that it gives you a little extra consideration, but doesn't make you a shoe in by any means. It will still be pretty competitive being from out of state.</p>
<p>What legacy does is that it puts you in the IS applicants instead of the OS. That's all.</p>
<p>Out-of-state legacies are not put in the in-state pool. </p>
<p>The legacy pool (which includes Virginians and non-Virginians) has had a similar admit rate to the Virginia pool, which is why some people have decided that they one and the same.</p>
<p>If you search "legacy", you'll find a lot of information about this.</p>
<p>Thanks Dean J for correcting me. But with all due respect, this whole legacy status is a moving target. When you say:</p>
<p>"The legacy pool (which includes Virginians and non-Virginians) has had a similar admit rate to the Virginia pool"</p>
<p>what does that mean exactly? That the admit rate "happens" to be the similar or that you consider OOS legacies the same as IS?</p>
<p>Dean J-</p>
<p>I'm confused as well. According to the attached lengthy article on U-Va legacy admissions, Dean Blackburn is on the record (see page 333) that OOS legacy applicants are considered in state students for admissions purposes. I'm also attaching a Wall Street Journal article making the same claim.</p>
<p>Are these articles wrong, or has the policy changed?</p>
<p>WSJ.com</a> - Admissions Preferences Given To Alumni Children Draws Fire</p>
<p>Please accept this humble reply. I leave it to Dean J to correct any mistakes. OOS applicants who are legacies are evaluated in a manner similar to the manner that IS students are evaluated. What I believe that means is that if you are an OOS legacy, it will be a little easier to gain admittance as it is for an IS compared to an OOS. For residency purposes and to fulfill the mandate by the Virginia legislature, OOS legacy students are still considered OOS and such students do not satisfy the IS/OOS split for residency purposes. FWIW, I think that there is more transparency in the UVA admissions process, thanks to Dean J, than in most other schools. The candid information that is available here on legacy issues is honest and is, in my opinion, anything but a moving target.</p>
<p>Admission officers used to talk about this in a way that was confusing. We read randomly, not in groups.</p>
<p>Just to restate: being the child of a UVa alum does not magically give you residency in the state of Virginia. Does being a legacy help? Sure. Is it an automatic in? No way.</p>
<p>No disrespect intended, Dean J, but as a UVa. alum I don't think I'm any clearer on the legacy question than I was when the thread started. I, too, have read the articles that parent2009 cites, and I was under the impression that legacies were "treated" like in-state students for the purposes of admission (not tuition, obviously). I don't think anyone has said here that you "magically" get residency in the state of Virginia, and I think it's a little bit flippant to suggest that.</p>
<p>You do this every day, so your responses are probably clear to you, but you are responding to people who are genuinely confused about the process, and I don't think your reponses on this matter are very helpful.</p>
<p>Since you read "randomly", say two identical out-of-state applications cross your desk, except one is a legacy and one is not. Will those two applications be put in two different piles or have any different evaluation procedures?</p>
<p>Here's the thing you have to keep in mind: By law, UVA (and other VA schools) must maintain 1/3 OOS, 2/3 IS student ratio. So, that is why it's tough to say Legacies are considered "in-state". They are not considered IS applicants, AT ALL. They are going to be part of the 33% OOS accepted. They will not get IS tuition. They are simply going to be compared to IS applicants' stats and admitted based on that.
However, legacies are given preference over non-legacies if they share similar applications. People hate this fact, but here's the truth on why: alumni money. Yeah, it sounds bad that UVa is trying to get more money, but that HUGE endowment that UVa holds is what is keeping people like Dean J from being laid off, keeps the massive construction project of the South Lawn that I hope prospective students will love (finishes June of my graduation year :( I'm so excited for it to be done though just to see how beautiful it's going to turn out), and keeps the University at it's top level.<br>
So, when admissions people are comparing OOS students to fill that 33% of the incoming class (this isn't a firm number, but it's basically within plus or minus 1-2% every year), they're going to give a little favor to the legacies. When people mean they treat them as "In-state", that just means that they're going to be a little more lenient when it comes to reading apps. Instead of having to match OOS standards, they're going to be compared more to IS students GPA/SATs/etc. So a year that the median of IS GPAs is 3.85, a 3.85 OOS student with Legacy might be let in over a 3.95 OOS non-Leg. That's because compared to IS students, that student is on-par.<br>
You have to remember though, it isn't that cut dry. Sometimes, and often, a 4.0 OOS non-Leg deserves admission over a Legacy. A 3.5 OOS Legacy won't get in over a 3.7 OOS non-Leg either. Compared to IS, the 3.5 is not strong enough to warrent an OOS admission, much better candidates can fill the limited OOS spots. The entire 33% could be non-legacies (doubtful though)
That's the other thing: the number of OOS who apply compared to the number of spots is astounding. UVa is going to fill them with who they consider will do well at the University and contribute to it. Admitting a legacy won't necessarily do this. Legacies are often strong applicants, but obviously, percentages show that only about half of them are UVa material, and the rest of OOS students are "better" than that 50% of legacies.<br>
Now on to the percentages: Dean J has mentioned this before that legacy applicants are often overall very strong. Most likely, these students often do well as a result of their parent(s) education here, or they've done well knowing what it takes to get in since they've been exposed to UVa for so long. Often, they are just as strong as OOS applicants. This is another reason they get in. Therefor, the admission rate is going to be higher than the OOS non-leg pool. A stellar applicant with legacy is most likely going to win over a non-leg stellar applicant.
This percentage is similar to the IS admission rate for a couple of basic reasons too. First, like I said, these are going to be strong applicants. Not only are they OOS with good stats, they have legacy. Also, since they're compared to the stats of IS students, legacies have a larger spread of the strength of application than OOS non-legacy. That's the big reason of the similar percentages.<br>
One last reason is due the massive amount of OOS students who apply to UVA. If you've never seen these numbers, check out Dean J's blog, or Google "UVA Common Data Set" and go exploring. I bet if the same number of OOS and IS kids applied, the percentages would even out a lot more (maybe up to about 40% instead of 35%). Therefor, it's ignorant to say OOS-legacies percentages are worlds higher thus saying they have higher admissions. They just have less people applying, UVa is looking to take strong legacies, and most likely they're going to find a good percentage from that pool. And, since they're comparing them to IS students, probability says since the general population is applying based on similar terms of admissions, about the same percentage should be admitted.
You need to remember that there is no formula to admissions. There is no auto-cutoff with GPA/SAT/ECs/etc. There's no quota that says how many legacies they should take. Most of the time, deserving students are WL/rejected. But that's college admissions. UVa needs to fit 66%/33%, and after that, it's up in the air. Being a legacy with a strong app won't make you auto-in. Being non-legacy and having a good app won't mean you're auto-out. But, you can generalize and say legacy helps OOS students because of the slightly lower standards.</p>
<p>An easy way to sum it up: They compare the strength of the application of OOS-legacies to IS. They figure that if they admit a IS student with an application similar to an OOS-legacy, they legacy factor is enough to push them over the edge into admission. Within those, they're going to take the strongest legacy applications. If there are OOS students whose applications outperform OOS-legacies with less strength, stronger applicant wins. Not all legacies with apps on par or slightly better than IS students will get in, especially if the OOS non-legacy pool is very strong that year. That's how legacy works.<br>
In four words: It's still a crapshoot. Legacy makes you an inch taller though, it's just how you measure up to the others in the OOS pool.</p>
<p>**Disclaimer: don't take the above GPAs to be anything more than just made up numbers. I have no idea the average GPA these days, and by other threads, they've changed since my days of admissions in my senior year of 05-06. Do if you don't have a 3.85 or whatever and are legacy, don't assume you won't get in. Again, TAKE THE GPAs WITH A GRAIN OF SALT. Instead, think of them as a measure of the application as a whole: a 3.6/4.0 is good, 3.9/4.0 is great, 3.2/4.0 is not commonly accepted.</p>
<p>Three last notes:<br>
1) I hope this huge explanation helps. I can't make it any clearer than "OOS-Legacies stats are compared to IS levels, but they still must be good enough to make UVa pass up another OOS non-legacy applicant, because spots are limited".
2) Please do not say anything negative about Dean J. We love our faculty at UVa, and so should you, from day 1. You don't need two paragraphs and another sentence to tell Dean J she isn't answering your question exact to your specifics. She's busy reading your childs' applications, not trying to answer stuff that's been posted a million times before, and on her blog (google "UVA Dean J blog" and there's a link on the UVA admissions site too I think). Be patient, and next time, just say "gee, it still doesn't make sense, can you elaborate?" and clarify what you don't understand. She'll know if you get it or not.
3) Newspaper articles often throw things out of whack in order to make a statement. I wouldn't read too much into them. Instead, call up UVa and ask them directly. They'll be happy to help, and it's easier than online forums.</p>
<p>Sorry for the long previous post. I saw your last question about application reading, so I'll answer that quick. Their reading style isn't a science either, but they have a general method:
1) initial reads by admission staff. They flag good/bad things/legacy, make notes on the application as a whole, and will flag people that could be possible Rodman/Echols (find this info elsewhere). Applications that are strong/very strong are marked, as well as weaker applications. I don't think any final decisions are made in this round, but obvious decisions are strongly noted, I'm sure. Decisions on the general middle population probably aren't very final. My guess is this round occurs start of reading season-end of Feb. They start reading end of October (they did this year at least), but getting in their app early won't help much because there's the second round to make final decisions with everyone as a whole.
The main goal of round one is to get a good sense of what the application pool is going to be. This way, they can start making decisions. Echols/Rodmans are flagged in order to get the evaluations rolling.</p>
<p>2) second round of reads. They go back and read through the applications again. This way, multiple people read each application. This is where students are compared more against their fellow IS students, or OOS if they are OOS, and fellow legacies.<br>
Applications that were marked for possible Echols/Rodmans have decisions finalized and these people begin receiving phone calls quite early on. These people generally have, obviously, amazing applications and will be suitable for their programs, so there isn't much attention paid to IS/OOS for this part. Likely letters also start to get sent out end of Feb, mostly to people who were flagged as outstanding candidates and just needed the final verification from another set of eyes.<br>
These groups of people aren't compared heavily to their counterparts most likely; from the get-go, they're seen as the cream of the crop. They might narrow the pool down in the second round, especially for Echols/Rodmans, but they're probably not going to be weighed much against other people and heavy decision making is probably not going to occur. These groups are also often small, so they don't make a huge difference in the 33% or 66% numbers UVA is trying to reach.<br>
Also, during this round, obvious "not-gonna-cut-its" are usually decided on pretty quickly. A 2.5 OOS student who has been in high school for 6 years and had terrible essays, no hooks, etc etc, is going to decided on right then and there. There's probably a fair number of people in this group, especially OOS just because of the sheer number of applicants. They're pretty much taken out of the pool. But everyone is given two solid reviews, at least, no matter what. Just some decisions are more obvious and after the first round, it's known the lower boundaries of admission.
This leaves the rest, which is a HUUGGEE number. Their applications are poured over and discussed, more notes are made, etc. This is where OOS students are compared against other OOS, IS vs IS, legacies vs legacies. "Piles" of each different type isn't really made, except maybe for administrative purposes to make it easier on readers. Instead, each reader just picks up a file and goes at it. By now, they generally know what should be expected of applicants, and they've seen the pros and cons of everyone (yay two rounds!). When they read the next application and see legacy, OOS, and a strong application, they'll take note and probably will give an acceptance. Next, they could get an awesome OOS application, and admit them. Then, they could get an okay IS applicant, and pass them for further review. Or, by luck, they could get a ton of IS students all in a row. Final decisions will be begun to be made, and some files will continue to be read until a final decision can be made. This is why decisions are usually not early anymore.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Since you read "randomly", say two identical out-of-state applications cross your desk, except one is a legacy and one is not. Will those two applications be put in two different piles or have any different evaluation procedures?
[/quote]
No, not until the second round at least. Notes will be made on each, saying they're both great, blahblah. The legacy one will get a note that the child is legacy. They'll go onto the second round in the same matter (unless, if one is considered for Echols/Rodman/likely letters but not the other, they'll probably be separated at this point) Otherwise, the readers will eventually, randomly and most likely not next to each other, read the applications again, and will make a decision, or continue to pass. Readers will keep in the back of their mind what they are looking for in both applications, and will make a decision based on that. Since the legacy has different evaluation standards, they will obviously be decided on differently. But the process is the same for both, and they are never assigned to different piles other than possible for ease of filing/to keep 18000K together, or until they're given a decision.</p>
<p>That's pretty impressive for 2:30 AM, Shoe. :)</p>
<p>Just to add, during our first phase of reading, during which each application gets read by at least two different admission officers, we don't compare one applicant to another at all. We'll compare the applicant's academic data to the profile of their school (to see what courses are offered vs. what were chosen, for example) and take notes on all the different components of the application. Each reader makes a decision recommendation and moves on to the next application. This is all done electronically now, as we're a paperless office. There are no piles.</p>
<p>The standards for all applicants are generally the same. We know as we read, though, that we won't be offering to as many of the strong OOS applicants when the final decisions are made. The second round is where we finalize decisions to fit the needs of the University (IS vs. OOS, hitting the desired numbers for each school, Echols, Rodman, CSS, etc.).</p>
<p>Perhaps previous threads where I've explained legacy admission in essentially the same way as I have here would be helpful:</p>
<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-virginia/456033-parental-help.html%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-virginia/456033-parental-help.html</a>
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-virginia/517258-legacy.html%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-virginia/517258-legacy.html</a>
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-virginia/530512-child-out-state-darden-grad.html%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-virginia/530512-child-out-state-darden-grad.html</a></p>
<p>Hope that helps!</p>
<p>Thanks, shoebox and Dean J. Those last three entries were much more helpful. Thank you for taking the time to lay out specifics.</p>
<p>Shoebox, I wasn't saying anything negative about Dean J; just pointing out that her previous explanations didn't really answer the question posed in the thread. Yours did.</p>
<p>However, I'd still argue that no one ever implied that OOS applicants with legacy would "magically give ....residency in the state of Virginia". </p>
<p>Shoe, Dean J. isn't reading my child's application. Neither of my children chose to apply to UVa, even though they are double legacies and have several other relatives who graduated from there. I am reading this board as an alumna and as a contributor to the University, and I do think that helpful, kind responses represent the University much better than snide ones. After all, you're trying to get people to go there, right?</p>
<p>Dean J: you don't want to hear my stories about my nights since last Tuesday. I'm pretty sure I can't go to bed before 3am now. Mmm will be a rude awakening to go home. Ugh. I studied so much signals last night it made my nose bleed.
Oh, and I expect some christmas CavDog pictures on the blog soon ;) </p>
<p>Tired: all I was saying was next time, just say "I still don't understand, here are my questions"
And, you really cannot say that legacies will get "residency" in VA. They do not. This is important because this means they have to compete in the 33% pool. They're just compared to IS students' stats and their decision is based closer to those, rather than OOS stats.
Lastly, I don't really think my post was snide. I just don't like it when people get rude on here, and I feel like there was a more simple way of addressing Dean J. But I agree, helpful posts help. That's why I churned out a page of info...I like to help where I can.</p>
<p>Similarly, shoebox, I didn't think my post was rude. I was asking for a clearer explanation. I thought the previous answers were less than clear, and I thought they were handled dismissively. I didn't think your post was snide. In fact, I'm amazed that you took that much time to handle the question. It was very helpful.</p>
<p>To be perfectly clear, Dean J made the residency statement. I agree, it's important to be clear about IS vs. OOS tuition as opposed to IS vs. OOS admissions evaluations.</p>
<p>Sometimes those closest to a particular situation don't always see the way their posts are coming across. I apologize if I was insensitive to our beloved Dean J (and I do mean that sincerely; she provides invaluable information here). I just didn't think the answers this time were in the same positive spirit. That may be understandable in the light of the intense workload she faces at the moment, in addition to answering the same questions over and over when she probably wants to scream "Can't you search it yourself??".</p>
<p>Good luck with finals and safe travels home. You are a great representatlive for Mr. Jefferson's University.</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
kind responses represent the University much better than snide ones.
[/QUOTE]
The "magically" comment was meant to be playful, not snide.</p>
<p>If I got exasperated by being asked the same questions all the time, I'd be in the wrong business. I usually just think "here we go again" when these topics come up. It's not a big deal.</p>
<p>Glad we're on the same page. I stepped in to help her out a bit simply because she's probably overloaded right now, and she's probably got a mental list of how to answer these questions in textbook form. It's just how college admissions are these days. Tell too much and rumors start and everything spins out.<br>
Hopefully, people will be able to search "legacy" on here from now on and be able to find a clear answer. Sometimes people search and an issue never fully gets explained, but I think we can all now just say "go search" when this topic comes up.
Hope you have some fine snow here soon, tiredofsnow! ;) I'm looking forward to break to do some serious relaxation, and of course, CC-ing.</p>